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daydreamer84
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09 Jul 2009, 2:22 pm

I vaguely remember from Psychology 101 that you have a primary emotional reaction, anger, fear, elation , that lasts only a few seconds, that is pure emotion. Then, your cognitive evaluation of the stimulus or the situation, your thoughts become inter-mingled with the emotional reaction to whatever it is. But, both emotion and cognition happen in the brain. They are both to do with chemical reactions in your brain and the anatomy of your brain. (e.g your emotion center is the amygdala, cognition would result from a complex interaction within your cerebral cortex? I would think anyways)



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09 Jul 2009, 2:45 pm

daydreamer84 wrote:
I vaguely remember from Psychology 101 that you have a primary emotional reaction, anger, fear, elation , that lasts only a few seconds, that is pure emotion. Then, your cognitive evaluation of the stimulus or the situation, your thoughts become inter-mingled with the emotional reaction to whatever it is. But, both emotion and cognition happen in the brain. They are both to do with chemical reactions in your brain and the anatomy of your brain. (e.g your emotion center is the amygdala, cognition would result from a complex interaction within your cerebral cortex? I would think anyways)

This.
That primary reaction "establishes mode of thought" and then cognition occurs which "carries out thought based actions appropriate to the mode". Fear mode engages fight or flight cognitive reasoning. Happy mode engages stay and enjoy impulses, actions are coordinated in a stable and focused manner. Giddiness or nervousness mode destabilizes thought processes. Modes are not mutually exclusive, nor are they binary. You might describe a hypothetical emotional states modality as say: Happy-5/Fear-2/Nervous-3/Guilt-1 and the modality was set by the subject experiencing a private illicit fireworks show (Shhhhh, we had left over blooming ground flowers and they are banned now!) in celebration of the 4th. The happiness is causing them to finish lighting off the illicit stash, the fear or being caught and nervousness from the combination this stuff IS essentially explosives and it IS kind of old, Guilt because, well I never like "breaking the rules" even when I think the rules are stupid, these factors modify the actors actions to make exceptional adherence to proper handling methods.



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09 Jul 2009, 3:27 pm

Emotions are labels that we learn to apply to physiological states/sensations, or mixtures of thoughts and physiological states/sensations. They are social constructs.

There is no such thing as happiness for example; it is a word people use to describe all kinds of reactions/states, that they have learned to think of as "happiness". Different people might label the same sensation "love", "excitement", "hypomania", "first cigarette and coffee of the day buzz", or a food opioid high. "Emotions" are value judgements. For instance, some of us have learned to apply the word depression to various states/sensations; it is a label which tends to provoke fear, and as as someone said, thoughts can trigger certain physiological reactions/states, so that is one value judgement which will almost inevitably make things worse.

PS. ManErg, I loved your description of the city made up of various "moods". :D About wondering how managed to leave a rundown area, I think that if don't get too attached to the "label"/value that have given to a reaction it often tends to go away of its own accord, unless it is a chronic physiological state caused by diet or ill health that is.

As daydreamer said, it seems that there are some primary physiological reactions, which you'd think would be obvious to us, but very often aren't, and get variously deformed, overlaid, mixed up with the next physical reaction, and/or our thoughts about that physiological sensation, and which "mixture"/brew we then apply a "value judgement" to, ( a label ), saying that we felt "resentment", or "bitterness", or "disappointed", or "suspicious" or "ashamed" or something, which value judgement we might then act on, if we haven't already acted on the very first physiological reaction already, and even then we might act on the judgement later, after mulling it over for a few minutes, hours, or even days if we are AS :wink:

In most cases we will probably never realise that what we experienced was one second of fear, ... or "simply" the blood sugar/food opioid crash/hangover/comedown from a chocolate bar/pizza, because one of the factors often overlooked is that our body's underlying, ( or not so underlying ), physiological state provokes physical sensations/states which our thoughts ( and even our body ), interpret as signs of danger, reasons for fear, for retreat/withdrawal, for avoiding social contact, or for getting involved in something, for liking someone, smiling, etc in exactly the same way as physical reactions to our environment or thoughts do.
.



Last edited by ouinon on 10 Jul 2009, 1:31 am, edited 3 times in total.

Janissy
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09 Jul 2009, 3:51 pm

ouinon wrote:
Emotions are labels that we learn to apply to physiological states/sensations, or mixtures of thoughts and physiological states/sensations. They are social constructs. There is no such thing as happiness for example; it is a word people use to describe all kinds of reactions/states, that they have learned to think of as "happiness". Different people might label the same sensation "love", "excitement", "hypomania", "first cigarette and coffee of the day buzz", or a food opioid high. "Emotions" are value judgements.

For instance, some of us have learned to apply the word depression to various states/sensations; it is a label which tends to provoke fear, and as as someone said, thoughts can trigger certain physiological reactions/states, so that is one value judgement which will almost inevitably make things worse.

PS. ManErg, I loved your description of the city made up of various "moods". About wondering how managed to leave a rundown area, I think that if don't get too attached to the "label"/value that have given a reaction it often tends to go away of its own accord, unless it is a chronic physiological state caused by diet, ( food intolerance, etc ), or ill health, that is.

As daydreamer said, it seems that there are some primary physiological reactions, which you'd think would be obvious to us, but very often aren't, and get variously deformed, overlaid, mixed up with the next physical reaction, and/or our thoughts about that physiological sensation, and which "mixture"/brew we then apply a "value judgement" to, ( a label ), saying that we felt "resentment", or "bitterness", or "disappointed", or "suspicious" or "ashamed" or something, which value judgement we might then act on, if we haven't already acted on the very first physiological reaction already, and even then we might act on the judgement later, after mulling it over for a few minutes, hours, or even days if we are AS :wink:

In most cases we will probably never realise that what we experienced was one second of fear, ... or "simply" the blood sugar/food opioid crash/hangover/comedown from a chocolate bar/pizza, because one of the factors often overlooked is how our body's physiological state itself provoke physical sensations/states which our thoughts ( and even our body ), interpret as signs of danger, reasons for fear, for retreat/withdrawal, for avoiding social contact, or for getting involved in something, for liking someone, smiling, etc.

.



What she said!

It took me a very long time to realize this about coffee. If there was unpleasant or hard-to-deal-with stuff going on in my life, I would get "worried sick" about this stuff. When I stopped drinking coffee, I still had the exact same stuff going on in my life but it didn't make me "worried sick" because I didn't have caffeine churning up a bunch of acid in my stomache that I interpreted as worry.



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09 Jul 2009, 4:08 pm

ManErg wrote:
Another analogy: sometimes it feels like my mind is a huge, complex city that has grown over centuries in a totally ad hoc way. My *attention* is like a person wandering around this city and it often finds itself trapped in a maze of back streets somewhere, going round and round the same streets, knowing that there are other districts, but unable to find the way to them. Knowing there is a park where cool water flows, birds sing and the sun shines, yet I am somehow trapped in this run down, gloomy neighbourhood, in continuous drizzle, going round and round the same menacing tenements (or bland suburbs...) unable to find the road, street or alley that leads to another district. Later, I may find my thoughts wandering around another district, unable to remember exactly how I got out of that unpleasant place and hoping I never get stuck there again. The point being that the 'districts' of my mind city also seem to equate with 'emotions'. There are angry and calm districts, happy and sad etc



Nice analogy! :idea:



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09 Jul 2009, 4:49 pm

ManErg wrote:
Although we all talk about 'emotions', it occurred to me that the deeper I think about them, the less I am sure that I know what they really are! 8O

This may sound surprising, as I think we all assume we know what emotions are. If 'emotions' are separate to 'thoughts' then it is very odd that I am not aware of 2 chains of mentation - emotional and thought. I am only aware of 1 - and that is a more or less constant stream of thoughts.

I can guess that emotions are a kind of 'carrier wave' that carry the thoughts. Or that the emotions are the background canvas that the thoughts are painted onto. For example, if I'm 'Happy' and think about work, my thoughts wander and flitter around the interesting challenges I solved, the bonus I was awarded, the generally good atmosphere in the office etc etc. If I'm 'Unhappy' and think about work, then my thoughts wander and flitter around the boring, pointless meetings I have to attend, the lifelessness of being stuck in a drab office in front of a computer for the best 40 hours of my week,etc etc.

Or is it the other way around: that negative thoughts lead to an unhappy emotion? :?

It obviously goes both ways for me but I think the "emotions -> thoughts" connection has a stronger gravitational pull to it than the "thoughts -> emotions" connection. At least that's how it is for me.

Quote:
Another analogy: sometimes it feels like my mind is a huge, complex city that has grown over centuries in a totally ad hoc way. My *attention* is like a person wandering around this city and it often finds itself trapped in a maze of back streets somewhere, going round and round the same streets, knowing that there are other districts, but unable to find the way to them. Knowing there is a park where cool water flows, birds sing and the sun shines, yet I am somehow trapped in this run down, gloomy neighbourhood, in continuous drizzle, going round and round the same menacing tenements (or bland suburbs...) unable to find the road, street or alley that leads to another district. Later, I may find my thoughts wandering around another district, unable to remember exactly how I got out of that unpleasant place and hoping I never get stuck there again. The point being that the 'districts' of my mind city also seem to equate with 'emotions'. There are angry and calm districts, happy and sad etc


That's a great analogy! Depression is what happens when the knowledge of other cheerier districts start to fade from memory. I might still intellectually realize that they are there but I can no longer "feel" their presence beckoning me because my imagination is no longer able to create a solid/substantial picture. Instead the scenery appears like cardboard cutouts or a movie set designed to create the illusion of a backdrop when none is there.

Quote:
The emotions do not seem to exist in any way 'separate' to the thoughts. There is only thought, albeit with different shades of colour. Are these 'shades' what we mean by emotions? Are emotions a slower moving wave underneath the high frequency jumble that is 'normal' thinking?

And what about 'feelings'? Are they something totally different to 'emotions'?

Any help, ideas and further clues appreciated!


I think emotions are more or less abstractions the mind comes up with. The abstract emotions are relational connections between different classes of physiological symptoms / bodily sensations and their accompanying mental/situational context. For instance, there probably isn't much physiological distinction for nostalgia. Nostalgia is distinguished by the connection to positive memories and the mental urge to attempt to relive them in our head. Without this particular accompanying thought pattern the same chemical/physiological symptoms might be labeled as something other than nostalgia. So basically emotions are connections between chemical/physiological responses in the brain and the accompanying mental context, e.g. thoughts, situations, experiences.

I think of feelings as kind of a subcategory of emotions. Feelings are more "in the moment" and connected with something very specific. Emotions can be more like the larger scale waves that modulate our thoughts and feelings in any given moment or they can be more "in the moment". Maybe I'm totally wrong and feelings and emotions are complete synonyms. I tend to have a distinction in my mind though as often I can have emotional experiences that are spread out over time. Experiences where I'm not aware of what I "feel" at any given moment, yet when I look back on the experience I can recall a general emotional overtone.



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09 Jul 2009, 7:06 pm

yesno, I mean ouinon: Emotions are social constructs in the same way all knowledge is a social construct, society being the manner in which the current state of the herd prefers to self-regulate and communication of social constructs is the mechanism by which the herd establishes that which is the domain of the social commons and enacts the governance of the herd. They are not value judgments. They are descriptors of states of being in a modal sense, they are the physiological condition of a human form in reaction to stimuli to act us a meta level of influence over action to couch our responses in a specific context.

By saying they are value judgments you are making a value judgment that is not built into the model of human emotion. You seem to be implying that happiness is good and depression is bad, they are not good or bad they are modes of being on a temporally localized level. They are useful to the individual experiencing them in that they are a method by which a more primitive executive function system exerts influence upon the hierarchy chain of human action impulses. Certain physiological abilities that selective pressures lead to us developing, are only typically put into action in certain modes of being.

It is like a safety mechanism in some cases, your body is capable of doing certain really aggressive things to itself physiologically that are useful to be able to do, but should only be done in dire circumstances. Your body doesn't do a full blown endorphine release unless it is in the emotional modality that comes about as a reaction to specific types of stimuli, which endorphines have specific utility combating. If you can release endogenous opioid polypeptides into your bloodstream at will, you are at risk of overproducing them and slowly turning off your CNS. You will certainly feel quite euphoric as it happens, right up until you just stop breathing and die. I don't think I would personally judge euphoria, which in my modality model would be like a Happiness-11 on a 1-10 scale, as a Good Thing in this context. Your body goes Spinal Tap and sinks itself with a homemade love torpedo.

Yes, if one stops being exposed to the stimuli that provoke a specific emotional state, they will tend to be stimulated into another state. Conversely if something happens and you respond in a manner and then keep dwelling on what something that happened, thereby reinforcing the original stimuli, you will tend to remain in the state that stimuli provokes. Either situation could be judged good or bad based on the specific context involved.

In most cases people never make a sincere attempt to actually establish what they experienced. People tend to be too busy experiencing the next thing and reacting to that. Humanity in general does not tend to be very self aware. They just go try to get theirs without experiencing too much trauma. Emotional modality has been established by selective pressures as an effective method of navigating human societies while avoiding enough trauma to procreate and pass on your genes.

Emotions are the status of the system, thoughts are the mechanism by which action is carried out within the context of the status by the system.



09 Jul 2009, 7:09 pm

Emotions are things like crying, anger, sadness, happy, stress, etc.



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10 Jul 2009, 2:29 am

Spokane_Girl wrote:
Emotions are things like crying, anger, sadness, happy, stress, etc.


Crying and stress aren't emotions dude, they may cause and be caused by emotions but they aren't them.



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10 Jul 2009, 10:44 am

Maggiedoll wrote:
I'm still not diagnosed, and don't know if I ever will be, because I don't know if there's anyone who actually can make an AS diagnosis in an adult female.

I'm going a little off topic, but I have to say that there are diagnosed adult females on WP. I don't think gender ought to complicate it. Look for a diagnostician who's really interested in autism - their credentials should tell you that. Have they written papers on it, or attended conferences? If they seem mostly interested in another disorder, they might try to shoehorn you into that instead. Like somebody said, to a hammer, every problem is a nail. See how you score on the Aspie-quiz or the AQ test. If those turn out strongly positive, you've probably got AS, and you deserve to have it checked out by a competent professional.



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Malsane
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10 Jul 2009, 2:28 pm

It is possible Maggiedoll, I was 18 when diagnosed. It is hard to find people with knowledge of autism spectrum things, and harder still to find people to look seriously at females and/or adults, but they are out there.

Other than the physical, electro-chemical nature of emotions, I think of them as an obstacle most of the time, as a filter to my perceptions. It's like I'm looking through a lens at the world, and emotions are filter paper that slightly alter to totally obscure my ability to see things objectively. It can be very frustrating.



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10 Jul 2009, 2:30 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
Maggiedoll wrote:
I'm still not diagnosed, and don't know if I ever will be, because I don't know if there's anyone who actually can make an AS diagnosis in an adult female.

I'm going a little off topic, but I have to say that there are diagnosed adult females on WP. I don't think gender ought to complicate it. Look for a diagnostician who's really interested in autism - their credentials should tell you that. Have they written papers on it, or attended conferences? If they seem mostly interested in another disorder, they might try to shoehorn you into that instead. Like somebody said, to a hammer, every problem is a nail. See how you score on the Aspie-quiz or the AQ test. If those turn out strongly positive, you've probably got AS, and you deserve to have it checked out by a competent professional.
Sex does matter in getting a proper diagnosis. It's really quite common, at least in the midwest, for people to first not know about autism, and second to think that only males can have it.



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10 Jul 2009, 3:36 pm

OddFinn wrote:
Emotions are all those chemical factors, that distort your usually logical thoughts.


Emotions can lead one astray, but I've also had plenty of life experiences where logical thoughts have let me down, too.

ouinon wrote:
As daydreamer said, it seems that there are some primary physiological reactions, which you'd think would be obvious to us, but very often aren't, and get variously deformed, overlaid, mixed up with the next physical reaction, and/or our thoughts about that physiological sensation, and which "mixture"/brew we then apply a "value judgement" to, ( a label ), saying that we felt "resentment", or "bitterness", or "disappointed", or "suspicious" or "ashamed" or something, which value judgement we might then act on, if we haven't already acted on the very first physiological reaction already, and even then we might act on the judgement later, after mulling it over for a few minutes, hours, or even days if we are AS :wink:


Yes, that's kind of how it feels to me. I've also had times when it seems I can *feel* the chemicals flooding my brain. but then I wonder if that isn't just because I've heard that that is what's happening, my thoughts have superimposed this interpretation on the fundamental sensation.

If emotion is different to thought ('logical' or otherwise), can 'thoughts' ever fully and accurately describe and explain emotions? In the same sense that words written about a poem, can never describe that poem as well as experiencing the poem itself.

If thought could fully encompass emotion, why have emotions at all as they would then become redundant? I'm wondering if some element of emotion isn't forever out of the reach of conscious thought.


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10 Jul 2009, 4:55 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Janissy wrote:

Emotions have a chemical underlay. Thoughts are different because they don't have that chemical underlay.


Thought is electrochemical in nature. It is neurons popping.

Everything about us is electrochemical. We are big bags of mostly water.

ruveyn


Electric storm topic

And the chaotic mind is a tornado, while the hurricane is a flood of crying.

what a mess. :roll:


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10 Jul 2009, 5:48 pm

Malsane wrote:
Sex does matter in getting a proper diagnosis. It's really quite common, at least in the midwest, for people to first not know about autism, and second to think that only males can have it.

Maybe, but any competent diagnostician would know better. Gender is simply not in the diagnostic criteria. Of course there's always the risk of ending up with an incompetent/arrogant diagnostician, so talk to them before committing any money. Incompetence and arrogance usually show up pretty fast.

sartresue wrote:
Electric storm topic

And the chaotic mind is a tornado, while the hurricane is a flood of crying.

what a mess.


I agree it's a mess. Perhaps it's not surprising. Life itself has been described as a messy accident, and I have to agree with that too.