afraid of my sister/thinking of moving back in with parents.

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all of these people are right, it's so sad that we have sisters like this, but we do ,just do what is best for you!

My family (cousins and aunts) were the same way, so were my friends, so I abandoned them. This might not be an option for you. Dealing with controlling behaviour is really difficult for me personally so I try to distance myself from it. You can try talking to your sister and parents and see if it helps. Sometimes a parent can talk to siblings and get them to stop or get along better.
I tried talking to people I knew about what they did that was bothering me but they accused me of whining or brought up things I did they hated in retaliation so it did me no good talking to them about it.
Anyway, good luck. Hope everything works out for you.

puzzle, it's a real shame, you're right. I have the sister from hell.

From my experience, you can't reason with a controller. Telling them they're hurting you is totally ineffective at best, and confirms to them that you depend on them at worst. They have their own agenda about you, which is much more crucial to them than your feelings. In their (unconscious) minds, control is their only way to survive, so they won't give it up unless they undergo extensive therapy of their own accord.

The "help" of a controller is not help but a control tool. Even so, one has to be completely resolute that one intends to live without that "help" before one confronts them and ends up, in the heat of the nasty argument that surely ensues, cutting them out or losing them from one's life without being ready for it.

Controllers are especially nasty to people that never asserted themselves with them before. It takes them many years to accept your right to assert yourself, and sometimes it never happens.

There seems to be an awful lot of projection going on in this thread. I did not see anywhere near enough information in the original post to make a declaration that what was being described is a narcissistic controller to be immediately severed from. I saw something that constitutes emotional and verbal harassment from an individual who is concerned far too much with the judgments made by others based on superficial things. So, a pretty typical american.

There is tons of abuse all over the world, for we have lost the great integrity. There are no lost causes, you can reason with anybody. You just have to figure out what language of reason they speak. People started out bullying me for being an outsider, so I bullied them back. I was better at it. Hell, I'm still better at it I just try very hard not to do it. I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from doing harm to living things. I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from taking that which is not freely given.

The help of the controller is a token reward to provide contrast to the token punishment. In America, we are trained to enter into relationships of dominance and subservience without even realizing that is what they are. We pull a hood over our head and paint a pair of masks on it, one side is the Male Animus Controller and the other side is the Female Animus Subject. We spin them round and round according to our fear and confidence all the while pretending we're just being good citizens.

Well, see, ASD traits are genetic and those traits emphasize the "male" qualities. Some of these qualities relate to ability to understand systems and how to get what you want from those systems. But in a female there is an increased likelihood that they will retain relational abilities allowing them to both pass undiagnosed in society and manipulate the way outsiders to the relationship between the siblings see that relationship. Through this they learn even better how to manipulate society at large and continue being undiagnosed and manipulating people into giving them what they want.

Get your genetic disorder, get your sibling that has a different representation of that same genetic disorder. Get put through the wringer of Life and see what comes out. C'est la vie. One of those bullies I become a better bully than? That would be my sister who is three and a half years older than me, aspie that she is she was able to understand how to get what she wanted via her ability to systemize. She was like a Dachshund compared to my own Mastiff once I grew up a bit. She knew how to push an individuals buttons, I knew how to push the buttons of groups and then use those groups to push each others buttons to make an entire school leave me alone.

We have both matured since then. I still remember what it is like to be the Controller. I remember how to control a controller. I remember how to do it without them even knowing I was the one pulling their strings. Just find their favorite victims and you find the key to their entire psyche. Oh so THAT is who is abusing you, THAT is who you are acting out your aggression against, okay, I know how to play that part, I can co opt the control structure they have laid out in you. Mean Girl with Drunk Daddy issues? Meet New Daddy, Same as the Old Daddy. Now go get me my slippers. I don't even have to personally BE "New Daddy" I can just assert dominance over somebody who I manipulate into courting her and through my influence over the relationship get what I want.

It is a disgusting, vile, wretched cycle of abuse. The only way out of it is through reason. If you just flee it you can escape many of the ills, until somebody else identifies the way to control you and you find yourself with a New Sister, Same as the Old Sister.

If she is a controller, the calm confrontation is necessary as a way of properly getting closure. It is common for victims of abuse who were never able to confront their abuser while maintaining control of themselves to seek out a new dominator so they can play the role of victim, so that this time they can say all those things they never were able to. Then they try and play it out the same way it played out last time and are surprised when they never confront them and just flee again.

If they are able to frame the location of the confrontation (public enough that you feel secure) frame the topics of discussion (list of grievances) and frame their own behavior (calm and in control of self, not being manipulated to the ends of another) then there is a greater chance that they will actually have thrown off the control structure laid on them to some extent. There are always other control structures however, for the world has lost the great integrity. There aint no such thing as a free lunch as they say.

I undertake to observe the precept to abstain from taking that which is not freely given.

I'm not projecting too much. People posting on this thread have experience with this. Some of us have this pattern creeping into our relationships time and time again. Some people do have narcissistic siblings. It's the sibling rivalry push the baby bird out of the nest early thing. Stronger baby birds will push others out of the nest to make things easier for themselves, giving them the most access to care from the parents. They are genetically programmed to behave this way so they may survive. Maybe there's traces of bird mentality in the human mind? I don't know...
In this case, maybe sister A is insecure herself so she projects it onto sister B by trying to make sister B over. What she is doing is controlling behaviour and if you've ever been around it you could spot it a mile off.

This is, word by word, my sister in a nutshell. Ultimate controller as she is, it always puzzled me that she's such a non-controller with him, and lives to serve him. He is, indeed, strikingly similar to our father in physical appearance. And my sister definitely has a daddy complex.

I'm not sure it happens only in females, though.

First of all Crassus you are WRONG on many points, I know it must be hard for you to realize that other people are not always weaker than you!!. I am stronger willed than my NARCISSISTIC sister. It is obvious you live with a bunch of weaklings that walk on eggshells around your ego. I know for a fact that my sister is a narcissist and we are 46 & 47 years old so we've tried everything to be calm when confronting each other. I know you seem to know a lot and like to post your 2 cents worth whenever you can, but you are very wrong about this entire thing. You said you didn't see any evidence of narcissism, that is just your inexperience with it. I could tell right away that this was just like my sister, and I am not weak and was never bullied, I would beat the butt of anyone who ever contemplated bullying me!!. I understand you are intelligent and respect that, I respect you for that, but maybe you shouldn't tell us how great you are in every post. This poster has an issue that has nothing to do with you, Obviously, since you didn't recognize the clear narcissism.I hope there are no hard feelings, Crassus, because I do respect you, I enjoy you comments, But maybe this one time we should try to help the poster not just talk.

Well, see, ASD traits are genetic and those traits emphasize the "male" qualities. Some of these qualities relate to ability to understand systems and how to get what you want from those systems. But in a female there is an increased likelihood that they will retain relational abilities allowing them to both pass undiagnosed in society and manipulate the way outsiders to the relationship between the siblings see that relationship. Through this they learn even better how to manipulate society at large and continue being undiagnosed and manipulating people into giving them what they want.

Wow! Crassus, are you suggesting that my sister is also on the autism spectrum? She's insanely extraverted and knows how to meet people very easily and manipulate nearly everyone (but she has less empathy than me). We are the opposites. She has always learned quickly, and I had a learning delay and go through life at a slower pace. Also, I am much more introverted and I don't know how to control or manipulate other people. My dad has always said that she is much more street wise.

rainbowbutterfly, I'm an autistic ENTJ. I match the classical autism criteria, but I am the Chief. I'm extraverted, know how to meet people easily and have them immediately like me and manipulate them into doing what I want them to do. I am a natural at projecting all three pillars of authority. Where I go, people follow. This has always been the way of things and as I get older I have become more in tune with carrying out my birthright in a thoughtful and pure manner. Whether or not your sister would actually qualify for a behavioral diagnosis I do not now, you can have autistic traits without being diagnosed, whether or not the traits you have should be enough for diagnosis. There are female posters on this forum right now who have personal experience with having to struggle to find somebody willing to diagnose a girl as autistic. What I do know is that applied in a certain way, certain autistic traits make control of other humans not just easier, but like a child's game.

I am attempting to help you, rainbowbutterfly, as best I know how, if you wish me to leave your thread say the word and I am gone, no ill will. In an attempt to not just talk but help as puzzle62 implores me, I shall use puzzle62 as an example, and so I say to you puzzle62, please hate me not for what I do, hands on examples available are always few. You have lifted your head, and gotten into bed, with a demonstration of my view.

I must be emphatically wrong, for it has been so long, since you were under controlling sisters thumb.
Clearly this means you are strong, Your shouting rings like a gong, don't take my explanation as calling you dumb
Those amongst me must be weak, their attitudes simply meek, for they are simply protecting my ego
The truth I ask you seek, tho' the pain makes your eyes leak, it is power upon me which you bestow
You read and then project, seeking a kindred soul to protect, from eternal enemy we name Narciss'
For in my hands I can collect, the reins to control your vect', my stance obeys principles Parsis'

I am no greater than any other human individual, if you see claims to greatness in my posts it is because I claim humanity is great. I claim life is great. I have never seen an argument made that did not encourage this belief to greater heights. I know the things I'm good at. I am bad at a lot of things. I'm trying to be better at all of them.

Your lashing out at me, your painting of me as a target, gives me notice that your eyes are on me. Through how I conduct myself, through manipulating what you watch me do, that alone is the power to change how you act. Communication is the projection of self in the attempt to manipulate others. I have a knack for understanding what stimuli produces what response in all manner of systems. By telling me that you are in your middle forties with a controlling narcissist sister you name yourself to me. By telling me that you have tried everything to be calm confronting each other, you imply you have failed, you name yourself to me. By telling me that you think I seem to know a lot, that you believe I am intelligent, by telling me that you respect me, that you enjoy my comments, you name yourself to me. By telling me you would beat the butt of anyone who contemplated bullying you, You Name Your Self.

Anybody ever teach you not to reveal your true name? Merlin was a fan of trying to teach this lesson. That which you name, you have power over. That which names itself to you, gives you power over it. You have in one post given me everything I need to take up the marionette strings laid on you by your sister. It would start with me giving you that token greentea talked about, that help that is only to control you. I would help you to feel correct. I would bow out of the thread and let you have your victory. I would bind you to me.

Do you know the easiest way to bully a bully? Get them what they want. Let them get used to having it, get it to put up enough fight to keep them interested and string them along for a little while, and then when the moment is right you give a little jerk and you have them on the hook. Then you take away the thing that gives them peace. They were acting out the repressed aggression from somebody else abusing them, they got used to using one particular target and nobody else as that victim that made the rage stop for a while. Now they are lost and helpless without the security that provided, so you offer to provide it in a new way. This poor creature that thought it was in control, you show it what real control is, you make an offer.

You say be bound to me, or be banished demon. Be my little tool, be my thug, or I end you. I see you. I know your name. I can break you. Or I can find you a new little plaything to act out your aggression on, one that meets my own ends. And they look to you as their salvation. They have become like a loyal attack dog.

Or maybe I'm all talk and I have no understanding of how these things work. Maybe I didn't actually do all of those things I remember doing, maybe I didn't destroy those peoples lives for my own small petty desires. Maybe it was all a schizophrenic delusion, I'd like to be able to believe that. I can't undo what I did, but if I never did it that would be nice. That is a pleasant dream to have. To hide from the truths of what evil I have wrought upon the world acting out my own sicknesses. A pleasant dream undeserved by somebody who has given other human beings the nightmares I gave them. I'll not delude myself into pretending I am deluded.

yep, it'd be hard for me to see my sister as falling somewhere on the spectrum. she's very outgoing and loves getting to know people and can easily understand and relate to their emotions. her narcissism, i must admit, exists primarily in her relationship with her family members, who must at all times be ready for her needs. in my case, it's more intense because i spend the most time with her and because her attachment to me is almost scary in it's depth.

much as i want to get away, i do wonder what she might do when i leave.

My sister is also outgoing and can also meet friends easily. However, even though she can control people, she barely seems to be able to understand and relate to other people's emotions. The thought that ultra extraversion and manipulation can be associated with Asperger's just kind of surprised me because she has always been viewed as the more capable one. Maybe it is possible, because one of my friends told me that she seems to sound kind of delusional in the way she behaves with me, and that she seems to be projecting some sort of insecurity or immaturity. I'm not 100% sure about what he meant, though.

She does tend to be overconfident and unwilling to admit to being wrong, but I don't know whether or not she's a narcissist because she has never been diagnosed. My dad once thought that she might be histrionic, which is very similar to narcisism, other than the fact that it has more to do with getting people's attention.

Some amount of narcissism is healthy. The amount which is healthy is judged relative to the culture you live in. You live not only in America, but in California. All communication is inherently the manipulation of others. In order to actually make a psychological assessment of narcissism I would need more information than I have been given so far. For how much resistance I got advocating self and layman diagnosis in the self-diagnosis of autism thread, it is certainly bizzarro world to be the one counseling against hasty assignment of a personality disorder in this thread.

HPD fits more with the outward appearance theme of the things you described being criticized in your original post, but if I was going to engage in diagnosing anything on even a provisional basis, I would want to talk to her. A diagnosis of her would be about dealing with her problems that she wanted help with. You are the one here with a thread, so you are the one I am interested in helping. I hope the things I have offered have provided some amount of help, even if only in the form of "What a bunch of bs, that's everything I don't agree with and will do the opposite"

The thing is it is not necessary for a behavioral disorder criteria to be met to engage in emotional abuse, it is just one of the signs of something like NPD. I've got my personality disorders but none of them are or were ever HPD or NPD, and I managed to engage in horrible abuses and exploitations. Many of the criteria for NPD are about the inner workings of the persons mind that leads to the behaviors, not the behaviors themselves. I have my Autism and my Catatonic Schizophrenia and my Bipolar, and those along with my personality and the environment I was in were enough for me to decide to do worse things to people than your sister does to you.

The important thing here is there is something you want to change in your life, and you aren't sure how to proceed. So whatever you decide to do, just keep in mind there is a thread here on the forums containing people that love you and wish for you to achieve the goal you desire. Keep us posted on whatever you decide to do.


As to this whole autistic spectrum means you can't be socially successful or aware at all period ever, that is a bunch of baloney. No where in the diagnostic criteria does that appear. I have and had my social issues, that doesn't mean I'm not a social person. There is nothing requiring me to remain isolated to maintain my diagnosis. Subdued emotional response is especially a strength for a leader. It helps me project that I am calm cool and collected under duress.

Instead of knowing the kinds of things people tell themselves and each other are why they do things, I can see the real reasons they do things and get them the things they don't know they want or take away the things they don' t know they are attached to.

In the other direction, you can have autistic traits and not be in the spectrum in the sense of being considered diagnosable. My point was not that the controlling sisters are all actually undiagnosed. My point was that if you present and get diagnosed as spectrum, those traits came from somewhere. You had the genetics to make it possible in you. The same parents had another child, that child could easily have at least one autistic trait, and your parents probably have at least one autistic trait between the pair. Guess what an obsessive fixation on the outward appearance of self and family qualifies as? Guess what an inflexible adherence to social propriety is? Guess what ritualized expectation of your sister to find things you lose, even though there is no rational reason why your sister would know where those things are, could be called?

lol I don't buy that females on the spectrum can remain undiagnosed and manipulate society into getting what they want. They don't have a disorder if they can do all that. That's what most people do, it's called "survival". If you can successfully survive in society, how is it you are disordered?
Most people don't relate too well to others. If they did their own survival would be more difficult because they would be overwhelmed with the woes of the world. It's normal and perfectly acceptable to not be able to fully relate to others, especially people you barely know or strangers. That's how everyone is. There are few exceptions to this.
You might as well say everyone is on the spectrum. Or not even have a spectrum.

The people who are able to manipulate their surroundings enough to have a job, a family, money, shelter, food, and friends you can argue are not disordered. The proof of this is they can survive and be relatively comfortable despite these other inconsequentials, like personality type, for instance. There's something about them that enables them to do this that not everyone has. Those that don't have it are the disordered ones, not the ones who are successful.

The Non-disordered have it figured out enough to have a quality life. This is the important thing. Is your life going to be happy? Are you going to realize your dreams? Live up to your abilities? Realize your potential? Not become a victim of society's scorn and ridicule? Ostracized or blackballed? This is what matters.

Being able to manipulate others is what ensures success in life. If you can do that, you should do well.

Ana, it annoys me very much that we don't have an applause smiley

Anyway, applause and post archived (in my folder of memorable WP posts).

Hey, thanks Greentea
That's a nice compliment.

AGREED 100%

Rainbow's description of her sister, and Puzzle's subsequent description of her own, is dead-on for my sister as well. My response about my sister's narcissistic behavior, and Puzzle's response I assume as well, is based on OUR OWN EXPERIENCES concerning the topic in question. I have also talked with a female friend concerning this SAME behavior in her sister. They do not have AS so this type of experience may not be related in any way to AS at all. BUT our opinions and advice on this subject is STILL TRUE AND VALID.

Narcissism has become rampant in our society. Those of us that do not fall into this category are still trying very hard not to succumb to it ourselves. Those with AS are the ones, in my opinion, that will prevail. I recently read a book about this very topic. “The Narcissism Epidemic,” by psychologists Jean M. Twenge and W. Keith Campbell. They explore the rise of narcissism in American culture. Very good read.

Have you ever heard the saying that "no one can take advantage of you without your permission?" You sister is continuing to try to manipulate and control you because YOU LET HER. Not standing up for yourself is what gives her the "ok" to do it over and over again. Rainbow, at the very least, stand up for yourself and tell ANYONE that hurts you, "STOP!" Whether or not they admit it or apologize, standing up for yourself WILL give you validation and make yourself feel better. As long as you are CONCISE with your description of the behavior, and state it to them with CONVICTION, nothing they say will be able to negate the fact that their actions/words/etc caused you EMOTIONAL PAIN and DISTRESS. There will ALWAYS be people in your family, job, everywhere... trying to manipulate situations to suit only THEIR OWN NEEDS. The trick is to SEE it, stand up to them, and say "NOT ME, NO MORE".

The hard truth is that you cannot choose which family to be born into. You also cannot change another person unless they want to change. Rainbow, the very best advice I can give you is to CONCENTRATE ON YOURSELF. Once you change yourself, then the WAY others treat you automatically changes by default. You ARE worthy of being loved and treated kindly by EVERYONE, including family members. This planet has almost 7 billion on it now. Don't waste your life giving yourself to ones that do not deserve it. Seek out those goodhearted people and stay away from the emotional vampires that only suck you dry and leave you feeling sad. You DESERVE to be happy.