The NonVerbal vs. the Unsaid

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Yay, I said something good! *grins proudly*

Also, the testing is geared towards children with AS-- as a kid, would you have been able to figure any of them out? I'm thinking you've probably developed some ability to decipher it through repetition. I don't think that successfully being able to decipher an expression that an NT child would be able to figure out rules out AS in an adult; the meanings, particularly of the simplest expressions, have been drilled into you for 47 years. Being able to recognize simple, child-level expression isn't enough. In the real world, you're expected to be better at it than that.


Not long after I got together with Kris, I was explaining to him how in the past my words have been twisted so badly that I'm frequently hesitant to talk at all. He was reassuring me, telling me that he takes things at face value, and said that the value of a face can be largely in the mind of the person looking at it. My example was that a depressed person may consider a frown to mean sadness, while a more angry person could consider a frown to mean offense. Is that kinda what you mean? I know it's not that simple..

Janissy, the "Mind in the Eyes" test was first designed by Abdul S. Muhamed, for Middle Eastern women with AS (I live in the Middle East, that's why I know). This is why you can only see the eyes and not the rest of the face, because the rest of the face is not something to go by, since you wouldn't normally see it in half the population in public places (only women's eyes, as you know, are not veiled in a woman's face here in public). Disclaimer: This is not true. It's a sarcastic joke. I'm totally making fun of the Psychiatrists who believe in this test, and NOT of Janissy, Middle Eastern people or anyone else.

Now seriously: Janissy, that's what I said immediately when I got the test - that I can't decipher the eyes with any degree of certainty if I don't see the nose at least. Nobody ever needs to decipher the eyes without the nose, except staff during an operation (they're all wearing masks over the rest of the face), fundamentalist Muslim women, and people who work with toxic gases. I don't work in any of these fields, so I don't get fired for not deciphering the eyes without the nose. This is one of the reasons why the test is stupid, at least for me. I wonder how Aspie operating room nurses fare on this test...?

Maggie, indeed, now that you mention it, I see that's one of the main reasons why the test is ridiculous for adults. If I'm fired from work after 2 years and not after half a day each time, then it means I can differentiate between a smile and a frown! I do work, after all, with multimillion dollar TOP SENSITIVITY international customers, for God's sake! It's obvious that my problem is not in the basic body language but in the tricky, meant-to-mislead acts that conform the power games between my superiors and also between my colleagues. The customers are easy because there's no power game with them. They ask me for what they want and I do it, and I ask if there's anything MORE I can do for them, because they're paying multi-millions for it. Period.

I'm starting to think that maybe there are lots of people diagnosed as AS or not-AS, indistinctly of who has AS and who doesn't...

Last edited by Greentea on 07 Aug 2009, 5:58 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Yes, partly that. And partly that the situation can affect what a look means. A frown can mean "I'm thinking really hard" if the person is working on a difficult problem. It can mean "I'm so hurt you just said that" if two people are in a conflict that hasn't yet escalated too far but is about to. It can mean "I really want to punch you but I don't want to get in a true physical fight" and so on. And, like you said, it can be in the person's mind. I've read so many threads where "I'm thinking really hard" frowning got misread as "I really want to punch you" frowning and social disater ensued. And somebody who is spoiling for a fight will JUMP at assuming the frown means "I really want to punch you". I think lots of bar brawls have started just that way.

The tests Greentea describes taking were designed for adults. The Mind in Eyes test is not very difficult for some because most of their problems with deciphering expressions might only show up in real time or when involving multi-tasking.

I know what you mean by this. I love socialising but when it comes to work I must work alone. I hate others interfering with my work, and getting in my head while I am trying to do something.

Zen, I can't concentrate simultaneously on doing a task and socializing, unless it's a task I do automatically like driving or cycling or chewing gum. But I'd still rather cook together with a lovely friend than alone...

Outlier, I certainly have a problem with multi-focusing and I wrote that down for the diagnoser - the reason I don't decipher the face gestures is often that I don't pay attention to them because I'm busy talking, thinking about what's being said, etc.

Now that I got started on this issue of the eyes without the nose: you see in movies that, if a person is wearing a mask covering nose and mouth, they assume people aren't reading them the same as if the whole face was uncovered. Same goes for religious Muslim women. This is why our Bedouin women here have this halo of being mysterious. Because you can never be sure of what they're feeling/thinking when all you can see is their eyes, no nose, no mouth and no talking (they're very quiet in public, people of the desert have a special peace). So f----- them diagnosers, the test is not effective! Only the husband of a Bedouin woman can decipher those eyes without noses!

Funny thing is, if I cover my nose and mouth and ask Dr. NT Diagnoser to tell me what I'm feeling/thinking, first thing she'll say is "I don't know, uncover your face so I can see!"

I picked the non-verbal and the unsaid. I based this upon situations where I am interacting with, say, 2 other people. When I make a comment, I will often see these 2 people quickly make eye contact, and I feel like I have just missed something. I once explained to a counselor, who didn't understand why I felt uneasy about this, that it was the same as if we had all been speaking in English, and then suddenly, someone said something in a foreign language, that only they could understand, leaving me mystified.

Couldn't understand why it made you uneasy??? ! !! ! Maybe the counselor was interested in YOU explaining why it made you uneasy, as part of the treatment...? If not, they're an IDIOT.

Greentea, yes it is nice to cook with others I guess. My main reason I think for wanting to work alone is that I hate work itself. All types of work, I hate. I am irritable and grumpy when I have to do it, so it is best for others to leave me alone so I can get it out of the way and get peace of mind again. Telling me how to do it just increases my annoyance at the work as it complicates everything.

Hartzofspace I have also had the experience of seeing 2 people make eye contact and some sort of hidden message passes through them. And I would not know what happened.

This is probably true. Particularly that it may be over-diagnosed in children. And since it hasn't been a recognized disorder all that long, adults with it have no way of knowing if they'd have been diagnosed with it if they'd been evaluated as children. How do you evaluate an adult female for a disorder when all the diagnostic tools are designed to test for it in young boys? It's not only an age problem, it's also a gender problem. Whatever people want to believe, the female brain also functions differently.
Remember that another large part of the problem with AS is your facial expressions. It's not only that you can't read other people's expressions, they can't read yours either. It's less obvious when it's you, but it's probably noticeable to people around you. When my mom first read about it, she said her personal strongest connection to AS was hair-pulling, and when I pointed out her incongruent facial expressions, she said yea, but that she doesn't think about it that much. Well everyone ELSE does. Grocery-store check-out people will ask her what's wrong, because she looks upset, and she'll get all shocked, because she feels fine. I'm sure a lot of people blamed me for it, as well. When my mother had a disgusted look on her face, people like teachers and shrinks probably assumed that she was disgusted with me... even if she wasn't actually disgusted at all. So another part of your problem with rejection may be that other people are misreading you as well.

Zen, maybe you do enjoy doing things with people but dislike back-seat drivers? These 2 do not necessarily go together...

Maggie, what I'd like to try is talking gibberish or another language they don't understand and seeing if people can decipher what I'm talking about just from my body language and tone of voice. And then reverse roles. THIS would be a valid test for AS.

You write the topic on a piece of paper and put it on the table. The diagnoser doesn't read it. She tries to decipher what you're talking about (while you're talking gibberish) just from your body language and tone of voice. Then you both read the paper and see if she got it right. Then reverse the roles.

My vote on that is for idiot.

all i can say is my--is the whole thing is very complicated. but my observation: it does seem a very AS thing to obsess about just one of the criteria

also: the poll answer choices strike me as very AS.

although you forgot: i don't understand the question; now will obsess about it for three days.

Last edited by exhausted on 07 Aug 2009, 9:16 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Maggie, please stop it. It's 5 am here, and the neighbors are still sleeping. Your making me laugh hysterically with each of your posts is NOT appropriate.

(joking, of course!)