Aspergers Bringing Out The Worst In People

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I suggest reading psychology books as well as military strategy books. I would also recommend books related to management. Learn your rights as well so you can quote them if there comes a time in which you must utilize them. Understand how to argue your points beforehand. In addition, you should learn from past mistakes and analyze patterns in the behavior you see. In negotiation, focus on demonstrating how both parties can benefit and how such a move would make logical sense. In order to do this, you must understand the concept of motivation.

As for bullying, the best way to respond is direct confrontation. Train yourself to know how to fight. If someone is verbally abusing you, annoy that person into physically attacking. Once he tries to lay a hand on you, you have a legal right to self-defense. If the bully threatens you, retaliate right then and there. Bullies hate it when their victims stand up for themselves.

that sound very true to me
also
our analytical and pattern-seeking nature can give us the needed perspective so we never forget to look beyond the little and petty games we r forced to play

Nope, we were on a missile base. They are a little more strict to a fault there. I know one girl got 4 points on her base driving license/priveledge for talking to the antelope. Everybody kept swearing to us that they weren't anything like the real Air Force. There were many injustices that occurred there, and if I knew how to report an entire base to the IG, I would have. One girl reported her situation to a couple Congresswomen, and hell that might be why they all the sudden have rape programs. No, this base picked favorites, and E3 rarely became a favorite. Now, they don't have too many E4 and belows there, so too many chiefs and not enough Indians going on now. Anyway, my husband was the only rank below E4 who was late. I pointed that out to them, so everybody else got LOR's. My husband was drug free (and he did get tested more often than most guys, so random didn't work out right there) and he had no physical altercations. He did get in trouble 6 months prior to this for something really embarrassing that was an accident that a Major also did where it was at his fault, but my hubby got the article 15 whereas the major got nothing. The reason they took away the stripe was they said the Article 15 would be dropped if my husband kept his nose clean for six months, and this happened 2 weeks before the end date, so that's why he lost a stripe and they made that Article 15 stick. So yeah there is more to it, but it still shouldn't have worked out that way.

As far as bad bookkeeping, the reason our trip went up in price was we had problems with flights being cancelled and US Airway was the most ridiculous people to deal with. Anyway, by the time it was all said and done, I ended up purchasing two first class tickets to get the godparent and my mother up there, and they had to rent a car to drive to another airport, because they were the only tickets left along the entire east coast (from NYC down to the Carolinas) to Puerto Rico for that weekend. All the flights in Philidelphia were cancelled due to weather, and when they said they were delayed at first, I just got a hotel room for them thinking of the NYC incident prior to, and it came in handy so my mom didn't have to stay in the ghetto of Phili. But the airlines promised flights the next day, and then they were lying about it when next day occurred. And my car rental offered a similar insurance to my Master Card, so I called in advance to prepay my master card to up the limit to charge my rental car on it, and the I added 100 bucks for breathing room, when I got there, they lied and wanted to charge 15 more than the 100 plus what they told me it would be to hold on a credit card, so I ended up paying another 400 out in insurance that could have been covered in the master card only to be charged in the end exactly what they quoted. I tried to get the refund after the fact, and the guy on teh phone was going to give it to me. When i didn't get it, I called back and they couldn't find any notes on that conversation and offered me 90 bucks refund instead. Other things like that kept happening all throughout. Hotel overcharged us at some point, and at another point, they charged my mother's room to my card 5 times. Also, coming home, my luggage broke the night before we were leaving. You are not allowed by law to buy luggage in the middle of the night in Puerto Rico, so we had to wait till the next day which made us miss our flight, and knowing that, I called in advance and changed the flight, but that wasn't free to do either. Yeah, lots of things like that which isn't really poor bookkeeping on my part.

Rising to the surface topic

My personality seems to bring out the worst. But what some other posters are talking about here seems to be vacations/trips from hell. Feels like hell reading about it. Very sad.

Hell is other people's vacations/trips. I think I will stay at home. Good grief.

I have experienced all this that everyone is talking about here.
I have dealt with the bullying, the irrational responses to oneself (sometimes, just for standing quietly in a common space) - I am still dealing with all this muck.

It is an understandable anger that we all subsume into controlled and personally creative responses. Another strength of character our makeup allows us to enjoy (once we get over the developmental 'meltdowns'/growing into knowing how to live with our selves... ,

nara44 wrote:

For me, 'the hell' is the waste of time and energy that dealing with bullies necessitates; the fact that the bully essentially demands our presence before them...how dysfunctional is that need!! !?

"...our very complicated soul..." Ive always loved this part of me ...so much more real, vibrant and in contact with the life around one than the bully whose nature demands unswerving sameness - everything static and relevant to them. Lifeless already hey. Now that is sad.
I don't stay away from people much these days because of the above understandings.
I still need respite from the gluggy feeling I get when enmeshed in work etc. then I need to go walking where there are trees, grass, bush gardens to feel regenerated - a type of carbon off-setting?

I don't think there's any doubt that we bring out the worst in people. I've always assumed it was because there's some body language thing we're doing or not doing that other people interpret as threatening or invasive or something.

My response has been to be extremely wary. I've become attuned to the signs that someone is getting annoyed or aggressive, and I act to defuse it, usually by feigning disinterest. Or you can say something like ... "it's not necessary to get angry". Of course, there's a risk there too, because that will cause some people to get even angrier.

I think the best thing to do if you are bullied is to have a consequentialist outlook. Look at it as if it's a miniature war. If you are uncomfortable about that, view it as a game of strategy such as chess. Think of all of their possible moves that person can make and be prepared for every single one of them. Ask yourself "How can I have my way with little negative repercussions?"Use analytical thinking and hyperfocus against them. Use your very strengths to defeat them. Outwit them in ways they would never suspect, as opposed to doing what is typical or expected.

Unfortunately that sort of attitude will quickly wear a person out. If you are always warring with people then you will leave yourself more vulnerable to meltdowns in the end because you will end up tired and over stimulated. Hell even so called NTs face that problem.

I do not really believe that any of these people are normal nice people. Normal nice people do not do these things to people. It isn't NT against AS out in the world. It is Bullies against whom ever they think they can get away with being mean to. It is an unfortunate part of life, and while AS seem to be more vulnerable to it (to you guys, because in reality as I said anyone who has previously suffered abuse especially as a child is practically guaranteed to continue to suffer it) you do not have the market cornered.

Anyone who has a sense of another's vulnerability has two options, shelter them or abuse them. Being NT is not the indicator that says they will abuse. Being AS is not the indicator that the person will be a victim. My AS son will sometimes become abusive towards his younger brother simply because he has become bored with him and wants him to go away. My non DX'd X-husband (Who several mental health professionals have told me presents as strong possibility of AS) was extremely abusive to me, and to our son eventually. In the end he snapped and had our son taken away from him by DHS, which is why I finally got our son back after years of trying to tell my X that I was better equipped to care for him.

You have choices. You can choose to believe that you will always be a victim and become bitter. Or you can choose to become assertive instead of aggressive and tell those people that they cannot continue their behavior and keep going to higher up members in your workplace and school until it stops.

Standing up for yourselves does not mean turning into a meanspirited sociopath. Nor does it mean acting like a robot at all times (unless you really prefer that).

Sucker? Mine says, "F**k WITH ME".

This is sort of along the lines of a thread I started on the Women's board, I'm a Creep Magnet. I swear people just look at me, and they can smell something that makes them want to mess with me.

I understand how you feel, but I don't know what to do.

It's my guess that a big problem lies in the schizm between internal states and displayed behavior. Sometimes, an Aspie can become domineering, aggressive, or just "over assertive" without knowing it, putting the other person into a defensive state that is then re-interpreted as offensive. Often this offensive behavior is as simple as talking way too much. Very often we just can't stfu. The person to whom the afflicted individual is speaking would have to consciously try to be that much of an ass, whereas it comes naturally to Aspergoid folks.

Another problem seems to be that of self-confidence. Everyone knows self-esteem issues are often found in Aspergian individuals. Humans are animals, and really just natural machines when you get down to it. The power games mammals go through are as predictable as the laws of osmosis and diffusion. The lowest-confidence person in a group will naturally draw the attention of people with more confidence.

Consider this: AS people are at higher risk of drinking problems. Both autistic people and alcoholic people have been found with abnormal/damaged mammillary bodies. And everyone knows alcohol is a "power" drug. If, as I surmise, the mammillary bodies are the seat of "willpower" in the brain, then that could mean that part of the brain is pre-screwed in some drinkers, causing them to self-medicate.

And let's not forget the Stanford prison experiment. All people are complex. Most nice people will behave badly given certain environs, and most bad people will behave nicely in some situations. Truly, a "bully" is no more a bully than an aspie is a "victim". There are, however, people who tend to fall into one or the other category more often.

Perhaps asperger's syndrome is a phenotype that, if allowed to florish and evolve, could lead to a Vulcan-type race that has many millena past dispensed with mammalian power games.

Then again, maybe we're just suckers.

EDIT: In hindsight that sounds a bit off-topic and/or unconnected, but that's what you get when one of your obsessions is Asperger's (and psychology) itself.

MorbidMiss wrote:

I don't see the recount of bully incidents as signalling that AS people have the 'market cornered' on being victim to bullies. I see it as AS people needing to debrief and put into perspective such an experience.

Bullying is a Mental Disturbance - even if done in a one- off event/situation.
All people need to acknowledge that it is an unhealthy mental/attitudinal practise because its aim and impact is to destabilise the other's sense of self and mind balance. (LoL- some call this politics)

On topic to conclude: "AS does not bring out the worst , in people".
It is the mindblindness inherent to some people, who also choose not to use reason and a caring response to others in their world. If they did employ such responses they would over-ride their MB and see beyond the looking glass.

While this is geared to a response to you, it's also general for everyone.

I really like what you had to say here, and it seemed pretty right on with topic to me. But maybe it's just because I have a similar interest (Aspergers and Psychology) that I just don't agressively seek just yet (mainly time issues and other projects I got going on right now). Anyway, your post got me thinking on the right track here.

I do come across agressive without intention. But at the same time, I'm not aggressive on issues that matter to me, which might solve my problem or make it worse. It's like when I'm talking to people face to face, I don't always have the balls to just say what needs to be said. I'm trying too hard to not hurt the other person's feelings, on a subconscious level, that I can't articulate or even think about what needs to be said until after the fact. For instance, my landlord yesterday came by to mow the lawn. After what we've been through, my husband refuses to do them any favors now including mowing the lawn. So when he was done, he came up to the door (possibly set off by me getting ready to sit on the sofa in front of the window and I glanced out it to see him staring up in it with his arm over his head to block out the sun), and he specifically asked if I were smoking in the house because he could smell it in the basement. First off, smoke rises, so the basement isn't going to smell like it if I were. Did I say that? No. I said, "No, I haven't been. Sometimes when it's raining I'll stand by the door to not get wet..." Then he really angry scrunching his already wrinkled tanning bed destroyed skin on his face said, "You mean to tell me you deliberately smoke in the house after I specifically told you not to?" Then I was like, "I was hanging out the doorway when it rains, and it hasn't rained in days so I don't know why you are smelling it." Then he left. What I should have said was, "Your girlfriend owns the house and she told me I could smoke in it, so it wouldn't matter now would it?" Maybe added, "Like you care what goes on in this house because you guys haven't been taking care of it obviously or the basement wouldn't be flooding all the time, and this house would have been cleaned up a little at the least before I moved in." Mind you it was nasty when I moved in. Food in the fridge, the cabinets, and even a potato tree (not just something growing out the potato, but it had branches). The toilet wasn't even touched. It was just nasty. I know from the time I decided to rent it (when the last tenant still had stuff in it) to the time I moved in, the electric, gas, and water was off. Anyway, that's beside the point. I think I might have been better off to be more aggressive and verbally attack back rather than just allowing myself to be a pushover with a blank look on my face (I tend to get into Asperger's glare military bearing when people yell at me).

Like maybe what happens is they are just testing you to see how much you will take. We always compare people with animals because our savage side comes out, but we forget to compare adults with children, and that's all they are...overgrown children. Children test. It's natural for us to test each other. Maybe that's what happens. They test me, and I don't recognize it as a testing moment, so I'm just like "Lawdeedaw, this is this and that is that, have a wonderful day." Now if I always treated children with 100% customer service, they'd be walking all over me. That's what I'm allowing these so called bullies to do. It's not that they bully or find people with low self esteems like most bullies try to do, but naturally all people will test you without realizing it to see what they can get away with around you. I can't imagine this guy throwing the temper tantrums I see him do in front of me getting away with that at work considering he's a VP. I'm sure it has something to do with the people around him won't accept that behavior whereas I did. Given I gave him the "dumb as s**t look" when he did do that, but obviously it wasn't so obvious.

I think Aspergers people are more apt to ignore other people's behavior because in the end, we just want to be left alone, and we put the burden of that on the other guy to just leave us alone. It doesn't work that way. We have to show people early on that we don't put up with certain behaviors, here's the line, I drew it, don't cross it. No different than a school teacher with kids. Just for a minute, imagine a school teacher with a class of 5th graders. Now, imagine the school teacher reacting to the kids the way you, specifically you, react to people in general. Do you think the school teacher would have control of the classroom or not in the end?

For me, the answer would be no. That's my problem. Not confidence. Not self esteem (most people think I'm vain).

I also think me being a little overbearing plays a role too. I do set off the offensive that way, and that's something I almost feel is out of my control, so I'm sure to be able to control it is no easy answer in of itself.

Like MorbidMiss was saying, you can become assertive instead of aggessive. I don't mean to be aggressive, but I need to calm that down and increase my assertion level.

timeisdead has it right when it comes to weakness-compensation. You could look at it like the Alexander Technique. In the Alexander Technique, you consciously observe (often in a mirror) your movement/posture and make up conscious adjustment algorithms to practice throughout the day. Eventually you learn it on a subconscious level. I remember as a kid I couldn't draw the number 4 for crap. I would draw it just like on a computer, with a closed top, and so quickly that it was severely distorted. After consciously thinking of making three distinct lines (open-topped 4) everytime I drew it, it's now the way I write 4's all the time.

People with high-functioning autism and Asperger's syndrome often show less or no activation in the fusiform face area of the brain, instead using the adjacent area that most people use to process objects. That's more or less verbatim from some book or study I read, and it does kind of address the lack of empathy issue rather poetically.

In the end, we have to end up intellectualizing the entire task of socialization. You need to read the other person as if you're a spy. You try to adopt their behavior to the best of your ability, and go from there. Think out how they'd react to something you might say, based on your read of them, and use that as the basis of your behavior. Think about your end goal and what you'd need to say to the person to get them to end up there too. If they're arbitrarily contrary, use reverse psychology. Basic stuff to us, but unnecessary for so-called NT's. Another useful trick is letting them win on some unimportant issue so as to take the wind out of their argument on something else.

Enough specifics. They vary depending on who you're dealing with and the particular thoughts evoked in you at the time. The important thing to remember is the general idea of using your strengths to smooth over your weaknesses. If it feels false, feels like acting, it is. But that's how it starts. If you're kidnapped into a cult, or drafted, you'll play along to get by even if you disagree with the institution. Eventually you adopt the very beliefs you're faking. It's the basis of brainwashing and when used on others, it's called indoctrination. When you use it on yourself, it is the height of meta-awareness. The beginning of the discovery of your true self, by way of creating it.

There are 2 totally unrelated topics running parallel on this thread. One, the thread title. Another, why some people's lives are unmanageable and look like they're constantly persecuted by bad luck.

I won't comment on the first topic, because my point of view has been covered by posters above me.

On the second topic:

I used to be like that, until my first long psychotherapy. It stopped after a couple years of therapy. And I often find people like that in the lower classes. The reason I was like that was that I was unconsciously setting myself up for failure in everything I attempted. And this because I unconsciously resented my birthright and the fact that other people had more fortunate life circumstances from birth than I had.

I used to get in all those messes by always doing ONE tiny thing wrong, ONE tiny unintelligent decision, that caused everything to go downhill from there, like a row of cards or a snowball.

I always had these impossible tales of woe that nobody else had, and I kept telling people. And people would, instead of taking care of me as I unconsciously frantically wanted them to, lose respect for me. Because my tales had lots of holes in them. They didn't make sense. It was obvious from my stories that there was something more to them that I wasn't telling. And that if someone cared to ask the right questions, they'd discover I'd sabotaged myself at some point in each of the stories.

So I'd keep escalating my self-sabotage and the tales would become more and more miserable and people would believe me less rather than come to my aid. My life was unmanageable, from disaster to disaster, each disaster set in motion by the existence of a previous disaster that had me busy and so distracted that I stepped right into the next disaster without noticing.

Just one example from all your stories: When I rented my apt., there was a clause that said that the landlady could evict me on a 3 month notice. I would've never signed a contract that had less than 3 months prior notice (even though I'm alone, no small children). Anyway, if when I'd moved in, she'd said after a few days that she was evicting me in 3 months (through no fault of mine), I would've gone to trial - and won - because no one is allowed to rent you a house and evict you a few days later. This is common sense, and it holds in Court very much. Your landlord would, in such a case, pay for all your expenses of moving out again, finding a new house (through the most expensive and pampering realtor of your whim choice), 5-star hotel expenses, etc., plus a huge amount for the psychological damages of stress, especially if there are small children involved. Even if you had no chance of winning in your country's legal system, your landlord should be busy hiring a lawyer and preparing his case for Court rather than mowing lawn and asking if you've smoked.

Last edited by Greentea on 13 Aug 2009, 5:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Three months notice is pretty much unheard of. Real estate and tenant law varies state to state, but in Maryland, the notice that must be given is generally one rent cycle, so for most rentals, 1 month. In some states I'm pretty sure it's a lot less. I really can't imagine most of that holding up. I don't know if it's different in other countries, but with the exception of taking the cost of a motel room out of the rent if there were a heating outage in the dead of winter, none of that stuff you described would happen in most places in the US.

I'm sorry. I've not seen any of your questions in this thread. If you did in another one, it's possible I missed it. As far as PM's, I've not received one from you at all. I'm very interested in hearing what you've learned about this.

I know it seemed unrelated, but I was at one point thinking the possibility of some of my failures (not all of them) is that I misread people. Like in my case right now, I never expected my landlord to be like this. The mother who threatened me...I thought she was the sanest of the bunch and had said that to my husband a couple hours before she threatened me. I'm good at reading people on certain things, but in this case, I obviously sucked. I also wonder if maybe they are great people that I didn't misread them, and somehow I just brought out the worst in them. Like this whole thing right now in my life is because I misread people and then I sent off the wrong vibe...possibly. Of course, it would all have been avoided if my life was more on track than what it is. My experiences with the military was bad timing on a lot of things, but a lot of what went on had my awesome (sarcasticly awesome) social skills involved, so I am speculating a link between my failures to socialize and my failures in general. I'm sure there's a lot more to it than that, but at this point, some progress in my life is better than none.

I do agree with Maggiedoll, leases are a lot more landlord friendly in the states. In the states I've lived in, the notice varies by state and by reason. Like unpaid rent in Wyoming...Landlord can give you 3 days notice to vacate, but I think rent is considered unpaid when it's 30 days past due. I don't know. I never had that happen, but my landlord once in Wyoming tried to give me 7 days notice to vacate because I had a third cat that he allowed me to have and changed his mind on. Anyway, it was no big deal because I had an attorney take care of it only because we were military back then and it was free for us to use one on base. Now, I couldn't afford one on my own. I'm still trying to figure out how to file my own will to save me a couple hundred dollars. Justice is expensive in the US.