Page 2 of 7 [ 98 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5 ... 7  Next

fiddlerpianist
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,821
Location: The Autistic Hinterlands

10 Aug 2009, 1:13 pm

Silvervarg wrote:
fiddlerpianist wrote:
And hence why using a term NT against a term like AS or autism is inaccurate. NT describes an abstract concept of neurological brain wiring (a.k.a. "brain architecture") which is predominant. AS and autism (according to the DSM) are essentially a collection of symptoms. One could very conceivably have an atypical "brain architecture" yet exhibit no autistic symptoms.

Saying someone can either be NT or autistic but not both is sort of like saying someone can either be perceptive or paraplegic but not both.

Are you sure of this? There can't be endless ways for the brain to do things.

How could someone be both, from what I know it's a way of thinking based upon what goes to where in you brain, and it can't connect to both places, care to explain?

You could exhibit some autistic traits, say, but not enough for a diagnosis. Your brain, however, may be more closely wired to that of someone with diagnosed AS than someone NT. Does that make you autistic or does it make you neurotypical?

Quote:
This isn't Hollywood where the hopeless geek becomes the schoolking/queen after everyone gets to know him/her and he/she stops with the geek interests and start going to partys.

You might be surprised what people can learn to do and how they can apply themselves. It may be way more difficult for some than for most, but just because one person can't doesn't mean that everyone can't.


_________________
"That leap of logic should have broken his legs." - Janissy


Silvervarg
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 787
Location: Sweden

10 Aug 2009, 3:54 pm

fiddlerpianist wrote:
Silvervarg wrote:
fiddlerpianist wrote:
And hence why using a term NT against a term like AS or autism is inaccurate. NT describes an abstract concept of neurological brain wiring (a.k.a. "brain architecture") which is predominant. AS and autism (according to the DSM) are essentially a collection of symptoms. One could very conceivably have an atypical "brain architecture" yet exhibit no autistic symptoms.

Saying someone can either be NT or autistic but not both is sort of like saying someone can either be perceptive or paraplegic but not both.

Are you sure of this? There can't be endless ways for the brain to do things.

How could someone be both, from what I know it's a way of thinking based upon what goes to where in you brain, and it can't connect to both places, care to explain?

You could exhibit some autistic traits, say, but not enough for a diagnosis. Your brain, however, may be more closely wired to that of someone with diagnosed AS than someone NT. Does that make you autistic or does it make you neurotypical?

Depends on what's dominant. If you know which one it is or not is really irrelevant.

Quote:
Quote:
This isn't Hollywood where the hopeless geek becomes the schoolking/queen after everyone gets to know him/her and he/she stops with the geek interests and start going to partys.

You might be surprised what people can learn to do and how they can apply themselves. It may be way more difficult for some than for most, but just because one person can't doesn't mean that everyone can't.

I can tell you I can't, because it don't interest me the slightest. And if I'm not interested I can't learn it, I know, I studied German for seven years and didn't learn anything because it didn't interest me.


_________________
Sing songs. Songs sung. Samsung.


Jellybean
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Apr 2007
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,795
Location: Bedford UK

10 Aug 2009, 4:00 pm

I've always just used the term NT for people who aren't like fitting with the social rules because of a mental disability (I hate that term too, I can't think what else to call it): for example; ASDs, AD/HD, Tourette syndrome. I personally call people who have developed a mental illness neurotypical because despite their problems, they were 'normal' at some point (except more severe mental health problems perhaps). I think that people with down syndrome are definately more like NTs, they just have learning difficulties, it doesn't affect how they interact so much (although they are often more childlike). I don't really know in great depth about this, I try not to think to hard or I get a headache...


_________________
I have HFA, ADHD, OCD & Tourette syndrome. I love animals, especially my bunnies and hamster. I skate in a roller derby team (but I'll try not to bite ;) )


fiddlerpianist
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,821
Location: The Autistic Hinterlands

10 Aug 2009, 4:04 pm

Silvervarg wrote:
fiddlerpianist wrote:
Silvervarg wrote:
fiddlerpianist wrote:
And hence why using a term NT against a term like AS or autism is inaccurate. NT describes an abstract concept of neurological brain wiring (a.k.a. "brain architecture") which is predominant. AS and autism (according to the DSM) are essentially a collection of symptoms. One could very conceivably have an atypical "brain architecture" yet exhibit no autistic symptoms.

Saying someone can either be NT or autistic but not both is sort of like saying someone can either be perceptive or paraplegic but not both.

Are you sure of this? There can't be endless ways for the brain to do things.

How could someone be both, from what I know it's a way of thinking based upon what goes to where in you brain, and it can't connect to both places, care to explain?

You could exhibit some autistic traits, say, but not enough for a diagnosis. Your brain, however, may be more closely wired to that of someone with diagnosed AS than someone NT. Does that make you autistic or does it make you neurotypical?

Depends on what's dominant. If you know which one it is or not is really irrelevant.

Say you're evenly split. If you can't know which is dominant, this makes the question rather unanswerable, doesn't it?

Quote:
Quote:
This isn't Hollywood where the hopeless geek becomes the schoolking/queen after everyone gets to know him/her and he/she stops with the geek interests and start going to partys.

You might be surprised what people can learn to do and how they can apply themselves. It may be way more difficult for some than for most, but just because one person can't doesn't mean that everyone can't.

I can tell you I can't, because it don't interest me the slightest.[/quote]
You're saying you're not interested in overcoming impairments to functioning, or is this merely a comment on your example?


_________________
"That leap of logic should have broken his legs." - Janissy


Silvervarg
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 25 Jan 2009
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 787
Location: Sweden

10 Aug 2009, 4:52 pm

fiddlerpianist wrote:
Silvervarg wrote:
fiddlerpianist wrote:
Silvervarg wrote:
fiddlerpianist wrote:
And hence why using a term NT against a term like AS or autism is inaccurate. NT describes an abstract concept of neurological brain wiring (a.k.a. "brain architecture") which is predominant. AS and autism (according to the DSM) are essentially a collection of symptoms. One could very conceivably have an atypical "brain architecture" yet exhibit no autistic symptoms.

Saying someone can either be NT or autistic but not both is sort of like saying someone can either be perceptive or paraplegic but not both.

Are you sure of this? There can't be endless ways for the brain to do things.

How could someone be both, from what I know it's a way of thinking based upon what goes to where in you brain, and it can't connect to both places, care to explain?

You could exhibit some autistic traits, say, but not enough for a diagnosis. Your brain, however, may be more closely wired to that of someone with diagnosed AS than someone NT.
Does that make you autistic or does it make you neurotypical?

Depends on what's dominant. If you know which one it is or not is really irrelevant.

Say you're evenly split. If you can't know which is dominant, this makes the question rather unanswerable, doesn't it?

Yes, but according to that kind of theory, you allways carry a cement umbrella to shelter yourself from pink elephants raining down. In theory it might happen, but very unlikley.
Depends on your point of view. (This is very much a question of opinion.)

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
This isn't Hollywood where the hopeless geek becomes the schoolking/queen after everyone gets to know him/her and he/she stops with the geek interests and start going to partys.

You might be surprised what people can learn to do and how they can apply themselves. It may be way more difficult for some than for most, but just because one person can't doesn't mean that everyone can't.

I can tell you I can't, because it don't interest me the slightest.

You're saying you're not interested in overcoming impairments to functioning, or is this merely a comment on your example?

First one was basicly correct.


_________________
Sing songs. Songs sung. Samsung.


Tantybi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Mar 2008
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,130
Location: Wonderland

10 Aug 2009, 4:53 pm

Most people use NT on this site to be people who aren't on the autistic spectrum. I think it means accurately "neurologically typical to the species." For instance, herding is very typical to the human species, so herding is a neurotypical trait that is not considered an autistic trait. But instead of describing traits, most people put it on people, like NT's have herding instinct and autistic people don't, and then people argue that you can't make generalizations about people, and nobody ends up discussing the herding instinct until someone words it less general or less offensive (as generalizations seems to also be synonymous to offensive). Either way, if we are talking what is typical to the species, normal is almost a safe synonym if people didn't read too far into it, and it wouldn't include people who have a disorder that puts them in a position to not neurologically be typical to the species (which would be almost any disorder would exclude them from that category), but generally on this site, it just means non ASD and non AS.



fiddlerpianist
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,821
Location: The Autistic Hinterlands

10 Aug 2009, 5:07 pm

Humans have a herding instinct?


_________________
"That leap of logic should have broken his legs." - Janissy


Tantybi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Mar 2008
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,130
Location: Wonderland

10 Aug 2009, 5:44 pm

fiddlerpianist wrote:
Humans have a herding instinct?


yep



fiddlerpianist
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,821
Location: The Autistic Hinterlands

10 Aug 2009, 10:40 pm

Tantybi wrote:
fiddlerpianist wrote:
Humans have a herding instinct?


yep

Huh.


_________________
"That leap of logic should have broken his legs." - Janissy


Callista
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2006
Age: 41
Gender: Female
Posts: 10,775
Location: Ohio, USA

10 Aug 2009, 11:05 pm

If you use "neurotypical" to mean "someone who does not have a mental, neurological, psychological, or otherwise exceptional mental condition", then it could easily be a plurality, not a majority. Non-NT would then include people with things like epilepsy, cultural/familial MR, synesthesia, giftedness, OCD, head injuries, or dementia. The majority of people will experience some mental or neurological condition or other off-the-norm descriptor during their lives. The majority of those will not consider themselves nontypical, though, in a sociological sense, so that the people who consider themselves atypical are probably still a minority.

Magneto wrote:
Maybe we need a new word, to describe those who have both NT and Aspie traits :roll:
There are already two terms. "Broader autism phenotype", or "Spectrum cousin". The second one also fits people with other neurodiversity like ADHD, dyslexia, bipolar, synesthesia, sensory integration disorder, etc. as well as people with subclinical autistic traits. The first one is the technical term for "someone who has traits of an autism spectrum disorder but no impairment" (including having to spend more effort to do the same things non-impaired people do). It has a connotation of similar genetics.


_________________
Reports from a Resident Alien:
http://chaoticidealism.livejournal.com

Autism Memorial:
http://autism-memorial.livejournal.com


Last edited by Callista on 10 Aug 2009, 11:10 pm, edited 3 times in total.

zen_mistress
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Age: 47
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,033

10 Aug 2009, 11:08 pm

fiddlerpianist wrote:
Tantybi wrote:
fiddlerpianist wrote:
Humans have a herding instinct?


yep

Huh.


Absolutely. Though I would like to say that sometimes AS people can be in the herd, ie this photo here

Image

A crowd of 750,000 on a cold february saturday in london, people were pretty fired up to get out of their warm homes to stand in the freezing cold and protest. I was in this crowd, with 2 other aspie friends :) .


_________________
"Caravan is the name of my history, and my life an extraordinary adventure."
~ Amin Maalouf

Taking a break.


Tantybi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Mar 2008
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,130
Location: Wonderland

10 Aug 2009, 11:13 pm

fiddlerpianist wrote:
Tantybi wrote:
fiddlerpianist wrote:
Humans have a herding instinct?


yep

Huh.


People behave differently in groups than they do individually. As they get into groups, they do have a herding instinct that doesn't seem to come natural to the Aspergian culture, although I'd swear I have witnessed it on this forum to a very small degree. Anyway, you can almost look at a group of people (such as an office group) and see an alpha male (or female) who is the "leader" and a bunch of people who follow that person. Let's say a fire alarm goes off in a busy building. More than likely, unless you know of the nearest exit and all that, most people are generally going to follow everyone else out of the building and stand where everyone else is standing. Also, like in high school, a lot of times, the popular kid (the alpha male) will maybe start bullying a girl who didn't want to go out with him, so then all his friends and followers will start bullying that girl for no real reason. I'm not saying if one guy bullies someone, that everyone around that guy is going to jump in. But I'm saying if that guy is the leader of a small group in an unwritten sort of sense, then the group is going to follow what he does. There's a reason they have the cliche... "If all your friends are going to jump off a bridge, does that mean you will too?" My friend's child once responded with, "Well, if the water's warm." LOL.



WXDustin
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 6 Jun 2009
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 41

10 Aug 2009, 11:33 pm

Janissy wrote:
Somebody who doesn't fit the DSM diagnostic criteria for autism or aspergers. At least that's how I've seen it used on WP and in various blogs. Now and then somebody will branch out and say you aren't NT if you fit the DSM criteria for anything, be it schizophrenia, OCD or what have you. But that very, very broad defintion never sticks and one post later people go back to using it to mean "not autistic". That's a conversational slang criteria and I have the feeling you are looking for a neurological one. But the term "neurotypical" seems to have arisen from the need to discuss how autistic people process information differently without resorting to "abnormal" vs. "normal". To be quite sure, schizophric people process information quite differently from everybody who doesn't have schizophrenia. But somehow they got stuck with "abnormal" in discussions about schizophrenia and the opposite of "abnormal" is "normal". So you don't have to create a new word that replaces "normal" to mean "people who don't have this" unless you first get rid of "abnormal". And getting rid of "abnormal" as a descriptor is what autistic people are currently doing her and elsewhere. Autistic people seem to have better self-advocacy than pretty much any other group described in the DSM. You can't get rid of "abnormal" withoput coming up for a better name for autism's opposite than "normal". Thus "neurotypical" means "not autistic".


Has nothing to do with autism. It just means that it is someone with no developmental abnormalities.



fiddlerpianist
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,821
Location: The Autistic Hinterlands

11 Aug 2009, 12:26 am

See, when I think of people with a herding instinct, I'm imagining us running after sheep down in pasteurs, trying to organize them together in some way.


_________________
"That leap of logic should have broken his legs." - Janissy


fiddlerpianist
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Apr 2009
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,821
Location: The Autistic Hinterlands

11 Aug 2009, 12:40 am

Callista wrote:
Magneto wrote:
Maybe we need a new word, to describe those who have both NT and Aspie traits :roll:
There are already two terms. "Broader autism phenotype", or "Spectrum cousin". The second one also fits people with other neurodiversity like ADHD, dyslexia, bipolar, synesthesia, sensory integration disorder, etc. as well as people with subclinical autistic traits. The first one is the technical term for "someone who has traits of an autism spectrum disorder but no impairment" (including having to spend more effort to do the same things non-impaired people do). It has a connotation of similar genetics.

I thought that BAP was looking at a range of people in a particular family for patterns of autism, not any one individual. If this is not true, please explain how the BAP differs from PDD-NOS, because apparently that's a commonly held belief.


_________________
"That leap of logic should have broken his legs." - Janissy


Tantybi
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 5 Mar 2008
Age: 46
Gender: Female
Posts: 1,130
Location: Wonderland

11 Aug 2009, 12:45 am

fiddlerpianist wrote:
See, when I think of people with a herding instinct, I'm imagining us running after sheep down in pasteurs, trying to organize them together in some way.


LOL It's more like a herd of sheep with no shepherd just following each other. I guess in a sense, religion is supposed to act like a shepherd to some flocks, but most sheep are too stupid to distinguish between a shepherd and a wolf. As long as they have their food and a false sense of security, they are good to go. But I will say there's a genius quality to the herding instinct. Like once I was in NYC, lost in lower manhattan. My friend was driving, and we were trying to get to Jersey. I had a map, but everytime I figured out where we were, my friend was already somewhere else, so it was useless until she'd pull over which there wasn't a place anywhere to pull over. So, finally frustrated, I said, "See all those cars with Jersey plates...follow them." Needless to say, we found Jersey so easily that way.

But I see a lot of reference to this herding instinct, which is so funny because I've always seen myself as a cat stuck in a dog eat dog world. Then I come here, and everyone else seems to agree that Aspies are like cats. So it makes sense that NTs, in a loose sense, would have more dog like instincts, and the wolves have a very strong sense of herding, more so than most cat families (however cats have it too, like Aspies, but as usual, it's more often misunderstood rather than lacking all together).