"Let's not be logical"

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To me your inability to sympathize has nothing to do with logic. It can be scientifically demonstrated that certain chemicals will create dependency by altering neural pathways in the brain. If someone becomes severely dependent on a drug then resisting cravings for that substance may become as difficult as it would be for a hungry person to resist the desire to eat. You're not thinking logically if you think it's as easy for your friend's ex to resist as it is for you when you don't have an addiction.

I understand the science behind the addiction to a point.

Ultimately tho, my thinking is more black and white. If you wish to keep your kid/s you will do what you need to to stay clean. It's a choice.

My point is that black and white thinking isn't very logical. There's other possibilities. She probably does want to keep her kids but outside intervention is necessary to stop her from succumbing to her addiction in the moment.

Last edited by marshall on 08 Dec 2009, 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

How is that being black and white?

You do it or you don't....where's the gray?

"Appeal to emotion" fallacy. Glad to see that you didn't fall for it.

My dad has the best answer in the world for this: "If you give money to everyone who wants some, pretty soon you'll have none."

I donate only to local charities or organizations of which I'm a member, and never to any which hire outside firms to do their fundraising--I refuse to put dollars into the pockets of shysters.

I'm lost. Where is the gray? Isn't everyone that way? They either do this or they don't. I still don't see how saying no one forced the girl to do meth was being black and white.

I also heard another black and white thinking is either we're right, or we're wrong. I know the gray area is, being unsure of something or knowing it's our opinion and we aren't going to say we're right about that and argue it till someone agrees. Those people I can't stand. They go on my block list if I run into them on IMs. In real life I screamed at my ex because he was like this. Wouldn't respect my opinions and drop the topic till I agreed. With my last ex, he was very ignorant and never listened when I correct him. I also can't stand those people.

Because why would anyone want to go through life carefully considering what choices to make

I'm a big, sentimental sap. I am logical, but only when I get enough time to think things through. And I have great trouble going against my "gut-level" values, no matter how illogical they are. I can't read much by the uber-rational late Australian Utilitarian ethicist Peter Singer without cringing and hand-flapping in visceral disgust.

I guest that's why I'm an INFJ.

You said the following...

"While unfortunate for both of them, it would be logical in thinking that if you don't want to lose your child you don't do stupid things like doing meth."

I don't see your point in saying this. Maybe it was stupid to become addicted in the first place but someone who is already addicted to a drug can't just reason their way out of the addiction. You have no idea how hard it is for someone who is addicted to just abstain cold turkey. Your statement trivializes the person's issues. I don't see logic, I just see stubborn black-and-white moral thinking.

Why start in the first place? They can quit, just go to rehab.

Every day.

Well-to-do and adequately-cared-for kids may succumb, for example, to boredom, peer pressure or curiosity, combined with little knowledge about how bad drugs really are for you.

For abused, neglected and/or generally kicked around kids the reasons usually are more dire. Many of them have only known adults who are aggressive, abused, under some influence or absent, before they start school (if they ever go to school). If you feel like crap about yourself and life in general and see no way out (because you have never known anyone who got out from your neighborhood), you don't necessarily feel like you have too much to lose in indulging in temporary oblivion.

When the addiction is a fact, it no more matters very much why one started - one is hooked. But one's environment can have a huge role in one's becoming motivated for kicking the habit, finding the resources to do so, and staying clean afterwards.

For a overly civilized (IMO) glossing over of the subject, see: http://www.ehow.com/about_5437907_child ... rents.html

For more realistic glimpses - if you can stomach them - look here: http://www.stolenchildhood.net/entry/pa ... -children/ or here: http://www.stolenchildhood.net/entry/ho ... angladesh/

- Athena

Aspie on the way topic

Ummm...If someone is calling you about car trouble, does the caller need a repair or to whine about it? A no-brainer. Just fix the car.

No, I see emotions in the full light. Compassion and understanding are the reason we don't have more wars. And animals DO have compassion. Certain ones anyway. I've seen dogs care for their owners (though I'd rather put friends, I don't want that mistaken for other dogs) and mothers of multiple animals care for their offspring. Of course, there are more animals that don't than do.

But how can you argue it is illogical to help someone on the side of the road? You have to go check to see if that person is a benefit to society before you can logically say it's a waste of time. If they are, which is likely, then it's logical to help them. If they're a drain, then yes, it is illogical to help them.

I don't think human emotions are stupid and illogical, just allowing them to rule your reason is. (Except grief, but that's a different argument) Emotions, even the normally destructive ones like anger can easily be beneficial if you use them wisely with reason rather than impulse.

I do agree that emotions are overall good. It's merely human use of them that can so easily tend to be bad.

Or they could be just calling you to come pick them up. Can you fix a car on the side of the road? No, it needs a shop. Even if the person knew what to fix, they still need to be picked up and get their car towed to their house so they can fix it. Actually, that person can just ride back home in the tow truck so why would he call his wife or kid to come pick him up or anyone else? But if the tow trucks services were closed because it was after opening hours, then I would see why he would call for a ride home.
Your car breaks down or something goes wrong, you call your friend or partner or your child or anyone you know and tell them you're having car trouble so you need to be picked up. What if someone called you and told you they need to be picked up and didn't tell you why? I bet you be asking them "why?" Then they tell you why by saying they are having car trouble. Sure I would tell them what could be wrong with it (If I knew) even though I know they can't fix it by themselves and I don't know how to fix it either. But hey, at least the person has a head start and he or she can tell the mechanic man that could be the problem and he looks at it.