Page 2 of 2 [ 30 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2

gassy
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2009
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 210
Location: Somerset, UK

02 Jan 2010, 10:16 am

tektek wrote:
no, gassy... you are a figment of my over-active imagination... (:D hehe)

but seriously, feelings of absolute dissociation (and detachment), and the thoughts and questions that these feelings promote, takes a fair proportion of my time... that and trying to see the meaning and purpose in life - even if it and i with it does/do not really exist but in the mind of someone or something else altogether... or in some other form that is beyond the bounds of my understanding.

:chin:

interesting... maybe i am just the figment of your imagination.


When i talk about reality to both neuro-typicals and autistics they always feel that it exists with certainty, as they see it and it sort of makes me feels very wierd when they say it.

A couple of people were mentioning Descartes saying, but the only thing i can say about that is i remain very unconvinced as to whether i am or my mind is real either.

Personally, the only way i can function and be productive in any way within this world is if i consciously accept that the world/universe/people/reality does in fact exist



Callista
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2006
Age: 42
Gender: Female
Posts: 10,775
Location: Ohio, USA

02 Jan 2010, 10:19 am

Well, d'you want the explanation of why you can prove your own mind exists?

Basically:
If you do not exist, then there must be somebody or something deceiving you into thinking you exist.
However, to be deceived requires the existence of your mind.
Therefore, your mind must exist.

And yes, you do have to accept the existence of the universe to have any kind of meaningful existence--unless your search is for meaninglessness itself (which is a self-contradiction because meaninglessness has meaning... something, nothing, and the void, remember)...

Anyway, to meaningfully interact with the world, you have to accept three things:
1. The rules of logic are valid. (That is, you have to accept the very basic axioms on faith--things like, "A meaningful statement cannot be simultaneously true and false.")
2. The world outside your own mind exists.
3. Other people you communicate with also exist, and experience the same external reality as you.


_________________
Reports from a Resident Alien:
http://chaoticidealism.livejournal.com

Autism Memorial:
http://autism-memorial.livejournal.com


poopylungstuffing
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Age: 49
Gender: Female
Posts: 6,714
Location: Snapdragon Ridge

02 Jan 2010, 11:35 am

I used to ponder this frequently, and i used to openly joke that other countries did not exist...because I had never been to them...all of reality is some sort of elaborate hoax...



leejosepho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,011
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock

02 Jan 2010, 11:59 am

gassy wrote:
For instance whenever/whatever i do something, it doesn't feel to me like it actually exists. An example could be like when I walk down the street, it doesn't feel like a car has gone past, or i am walking past a row of houses. However, once I consciously analyse the situation i know when i think about it logically that i am. Or another example could be me typing this post at the moment. It doesn't feel like i am actually doing it, or feel i am in fact sitting down with my laptop on my lap. I almost have to consciously convince myself that I am doing it in order to believe so.


I used to have "flying dreams", and my favorite part was the seeming ability to gracefully fly down flights of stairs and land softly and continue on (even though I could not fly up them). But in reality, when awake, I must continually remind myself of things such as the fact that a head-on collision with a truck really would actually hurt and would likely cost me my life. Nevertheless, I greatly enjoy pondering the how-and-why of identifiable reality.


_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================


gassy
Sea Gull
Sea Gull

User avatar

Joined: 2 May 2009
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 210
Location: Somerset, UK

02 Jan 2010, 12:10 pm

Callista wrote:
Well, d'you want the explanation of why you can prove your own mind exists?

Basically:
If you do not exist, then there must be somebody or something deceiving you into thinking you exist.
However, to be deceived requires the existence of your mind.
Therefore, your mind must exist.

And yes, you do have to accept the existence of the universe to have any kind of meaningful existence--unless your search is for meaninglessness itself (which is a self-contradiction because meaninglessness has meaning... something, nothing, and the void, remember)...

Anyway, to meaningfully interact with the world, you have to accept three things:
1. The rules of logic are valid. (That is, you have to accept the very basic axioms on faith--things like, "A meaningful statement cannot be simultaneously true and false.")
2. The world outside your own mind exists.
3. Other people you communicate with also exist, and experience the same external reality as you.


I'm a little confused. The problem I have is being unable to instantaneously identify that i exist without consciously thinking about it (or basically just accepting it). Also I'm confused with your first line:

First you say that I don't exist
But then you say I am being deceived
But how can I be deceived if I don't exist?



Callista
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2006
Age: 42
Gender: Female
Posts: 10,775
Location: Ohio, USA

02 Jan 2010, 3:57 pm

Actually, you've got it; the self-contradictory statement that follows from assuming you don't exist is the proof that you do exist. Either you do exist or you don't exist; take "I don't exist" as a statement and follow it to its natural conclusion, and you get a critical logic failure.

If you do not exist, then your existence is a deception.
If it is a deception, then someone has to exist to be deceived.
So, if your existence is a deception, you must exist.

The illogical statement is,"If you do not exist, then you must exist." If a statement leads naturally to illogical conclusions, then the statement cannot be true.


_________________
Reports from a Resident Alien:
http://chaoticidealism.livejournal.com

Autism Memorial:
http://autism-memorial.livejournal.com


DeaconBlues
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Apr 2007
Age: 61
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,661
Location: Earth, mostly

02 Jan 2010, 4:03 pm

"Is it true that everything is an illusion, and nothing exists? In that case, I definitely paid too much for my carpet."

- Woody Allen, in The Thing With Feathers

(which also includes the title quote: "Emily Dickinson was wrong. Hope is not the thing with feathers. The thing with feathers is my nephew. I must take him to a specialist in Zurich.")


_________________
Sodium is a metal that reacts explosively when exposed to water. Chlorine is a gas that'll kill you dead in moments. Together they make my fries taste good.


dddhgg
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Dec 2006
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,108
Location: The broom closet on the 13th floor

02 Jan 2010, 4:23 pm

Nothing exists. That's why I stopped worrying about anything.

Seriously though, have a look at G. E. Moore's article "Proof of an External World" (see this link). It's interesting reading.


_________________
Dabey müssen wir nichts seyn, sondern alles werden wollen, und besonders nicht öffter stille stehen und ruhen, als die Nothdurfft eines müden Geistes und Körpers erfordert. - Goethe


TheMysteriousOne
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 7 Nov 2009
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 35

02 Jan 2010, 5:08 pm

I have been pondering the nature of existence and I have pondered the idea of non-existence being a category of existence. I was toying with existence having multiple dimensions, rather than the simple dichotomy most reduce it to "either something exists or it doesn't". How about something can "kind of" exist? Take the idea of the "three-sided square" for example. Most would say that it can't exist because a square by definition can only have four sides. But if it doesn't exist, then why does it exist as a concept capable of analysis? A three-sided square does exist, but not materially.
Then I pondered the idea of the supernatural. I evaluated this as an agnostic and an atheist. I realized that objects can exist conceptually and materially, so overlap is possible. However, there is no evidence of the supernatural interacting with the natural. Through science, a plethora of natural events can be explained under natural laws and there is little reason to believe currently that events with no explanation can't be explained later. i decided then that supernatural, in the religious sense, would be the wrong term to use. Rather, I decided to use it in the more etymologically correct sense, as a realm out of the perception of those belonging to the natural realm. It can not, by definition interact with natural existence.
Separate from the supernatural category, but capable of overlapping with it belongs concepts we can not conceive of. This one is kind of similar to the supernatural in that natural beings can not experience them. However, the supernatural focuses more on things related to what we consider objects while the other focuses moreso on things related to concepts. Since for us, concepts and objects can overlap, but are not necessarily synonymous, likewise, those two categories interlap but are not synonymous.
Things which we consider to not exist, actually exist conceptually. Things which "don't exist" because we can not experience them due to our natural existence, belong to the "extranatural". Hope I made sense :D :? :( :lol: :wink:
*Perhaps extranatural may be a better term than supernatural as it more readily conveys the sense of existing =outside= rather than a hierarchal existence.*



Ambivalence
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Nov 2008
Age: 47
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,613
Location: Peterlee (for Industry)

02 Jan 2010, 5:24 pm

To paraphrase Ayn (hopefully not too badly) "the world exists, it is how it appears, deal with it as such; you have senses, use them, work out what the result means; attempting to place your own fancies before reality will ultimately lead to your disillusionment and downfall; the world doesn't care what you think about it, it just is."


_________________
No one has gone missing or died.

The year is still young.


TheMysteriousOne
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 7 Nov 2009
Age: 31
Gender: Male
Posts: 35

02 Jan 2010, 5:56 pm

Ambivalence wrote:
To paraphrase Ayn (hopefully not too badly) "the world exists, it is how it appears, deal with it as such; you have senses, use them, work out what the result means; attempting to place your own fancies before reality will ultimately lead to your disillusionment and downfall; the world doesn't care what you think about it, it just is."


I'm sure most of us are playing Devil's Advocate. The mere fact that we perceive information from our senses means reality exists in some form. Anyway, to play Devil's Advocate again:
The quote conveys a potential misunderstanding of the topic at hand. What happens when you attempt to logically prove the world outside of yourself is that it ultimately breaks down, and one has to assume it exists. This is not "imposing" our fancies upon life. There is no objective matter to corroborate your senses, you either believe them or you don't. How does the schizophrenic differentiate between when someone is really trying to kill them versus a hallucination?



leejosepho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,011
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock

03 Jan 2010, 9:05 pm

TheMysteriousOne wrote:
How does the schizophrenic differentiate between when someone is really trying to kill them versus an hallucination?


When turning blue or bleeding actually begins?


_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================


Callista
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Feb 2006
Age: 42
Gender: Female
Posts: 10,775
Location: Ohio, USA

03 Jan 2010, 11:38 pm

TheMysteriousOne wrote:
I have been pondering the nature of existence and I have pondered the idea of non-existence being a category of existence. I was toying with existence having multiple dimensions, rather than the simple dichotomy most reduce it to "either something exists or it doesn't". How about something can "kind of" exist? Take the idea of the "three-sided square" for example. Most would say that it can't exist because a square by definition can only have four sides. But if it doesn't exist, then why does it exist as a concept capable of analysis? A three-sided square does exist, but not materially.
Then I pondered the idea of the supernatural. I evaluated this as an agnostic and an atheist. I realized that objects can exist conceptually and materially, so overlap is possible. However, there is no evidence of the supernatural interacting with the natural. Through science, a plethora of natural events can be explained under natural laws and there is little reason to believe currently that events with no explanation can't be explained later. i decided then that supernatural, in the religious sense, would be the wrong term to use. Rather, I decided to use it in the more etymologically correct sense, as a realm out of the perception of those belonging to the natural realm. It can not, by definition interact with natural existence.
Separate from the supernatural category, but capable of overlapping with it belongs concepts we can not conceive of. This one is kind of similar to the supernatural in that natural beings can not experience them. However, the supernatural focuses more on things related to what we consider objects while the other focuses moreso on things related to concepts. Since for us, concepts and objects can overlap, but are not necessarily synonymous, likewise, those two categories interlap but are not synonymous.
Things which we consider to not exist, actually exist conceptually. Things which "don't exist" because we can not experience them due to our natural existence, belong to the "extranatural". Hope I made sense :D :? :( :lol: :wink:
*Perhaps extranatural may be a better term than supernatural as it more readily conveys the sense of existing =outside= rather than a hierarchal existence.*


Yes, it is possible to extend the proof of one's own existence to prove the reality of one's experiences and ideas; however, one cannot prove that these experiences and ideas reflect an external reality. I think you are referring to the category of "ideas which are not in harmony with experience"? Such as the three-sided square or other logical contradictions...

This ties in with Plato's ideas a bit--basically, that ideas are a higher existence than things; the idea of a square is a more real square than the square you cut out of paper; the notion that abstract ideas have independent reality. I don't think I explained that very well; check out the cave analogy (quite famous; you've probably heard of it already) for another explanation. I'm not sure whether I agree with him, though.


_________________
Reports from a Resident Alien:
http://chaoticidealism.livejournal.com

Autism Memorial:
http://autism-memorial.livejournal.com


TomAdams92
Blue Jay
Blue Jay

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2009
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 90

04 Jan 2010, 1:41 pm

nop, were all part of a big matrix thing?