Financial crisis been blamed on people with Asperger's! (wtf

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bombergal
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04 Feb 2010, 12:00 pm

This is ridiculous! Asperger's people can be perceived as unpleasant and/or rude by NT's, but I find myself to be very pleasant and kind! We are VERY poorly understood and yes, I lack theory of mind or the ability to see another person's thinking by looking at them but I do have a conscience and know what's right or wrong.

I'm sick of the stigma...having Asperger's shouldn't be a secret anymore to society (some people have really shunned me about it afterwards when I told them). It's a difference, not a disability.



TPE2
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04 Feb 2010, 12:01 pm

I think you are being very nasty with the article - yes, the author first writes about a theory that blame Asperger by the crisis, but after he exposes an opposite theory



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04 Feb 2010, 12:03 pm

bombergal wrote:
This is ridiculous! Asperger's people can be perceived as unpleasant and/or rude by NT's, but I find myself to be very pleasant and kind! We are VERY poorly understood and yes, I lack theory of mind or the ability to see another person's thinking by looking at them but I do have a conscience and know what's right or wrong.


And what is have to do with the point? The theory of Nasseb is that Aspies have difficulty with predicting unpredictabe events, not that Aspies are amoral.



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04 Feb 2010, 12:03 pm

My initial, angry comment:

Quote:
Not only that.
Aspies are actually in blame for the growing tension between muslims and christians in Europe.
This is part of our plan to take over the world.


But then, after I calmed down a bit, I actually read the article - and, well, look at it differently. I think we all misinterpreted the guy. It looks to me as if he's actually saying that we are the ones seeing the illusion, and not jumping on the bandwagon.

Quote:
Actually, and here I am fishing in shallower waters than Taleb, there are elements of a typical Asperger's personality which are extremely useful in guarding against manias and bubbles.

THE EMPEROR'S NEW CLOTHES

People with Asperger's Syndrome are largely immune to social pressures; they often do not recognize them, or if they do, dismiss them as silly. They can be, in many ways, like the child in the Hans Christian Andersen story "The Emperor's New Clothes." In the story the emperor is sold a new suit made of a fabric that supposedly will be invisible to anyone who is not fit for the position they hold. The suit is a fraud, but the emperor, afraid of being one himself, pretends to be able to see it. Everyone else plays along until the emperor meets a child who calls it as he sees it and pierces the illusion.

Typical people, in order to make the numberless decisions they are forced to make with only limited data, rely heavily on taking their clues from what other people are doing -- following the herd. This has a certain efficiency but, as people place a heavy weight on what others are doing, leaves them open to be swept up in manias or bubbles.

This is true for individuals buying houses in 2005 because "everyone knows they will only go up" and it is true for fund managers making "momentum" investments in dotcom stocks. Fashion, for most people, is a powerful faculty-numbing force; just leaf through some old magazines and check out what people were wearing round about 1971.

For people on the Asperger's spectrum this is far less true; regardless of what people are talking about at cocktail parties, they won't believe that we can all grow rich by buying up one another's houses, nor will they take assurances from "authorities" as the final word. Having less fear of looking stupid than the rest of us, they will stand by what they perceive. They are also, at least in my experience, far less likely than the average person to hold a position cynically; because it benefits them rather than because they believe it.

That might not be the only type of person you want in a financial system, but those are some pretty valuable characteristics for a fund manger or banking regulator.


Basically, the author hails us for using reason and not following the stupid herd, and says we should be used as councellors, because we think for ourselves.



TPE2
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04 Feb 2010, 12:07 pm

How is blaming aspies is that Nassim Taleb, not the author of the article.



Last edited by TPE2 on 04 Feb 2010, 12:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Omerik
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04 Feb 2010, 12:09 pm

TPE2 wrote:
I think you are being very nasty with the article - yes, the author first writes about a theory that blame Asperger by the crisis, but after he exposes an opposite theory

Exactly. Jim Saft defended us against this bizarre theory.
I got freaked out when I read the beginning of that dumb theory - but then I was happy to see that someone actually says that if anything, Aspies should be used for help.

He says we're honest, we don't follow the herd but rather our reasoning, and we don't care how silly we look - and in the end, we are sometimes right.
That's a great compliment. We should thank him, not bash him.



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04 Feb 2010, 12:18 pm

TPE2 wrote:
alex wrote:
Quote:
COLUMN - Did Asperger's help cause the crisis?: James Saft

(James Saft is a Reuters columnist. The opinions expressed are his own)

By Jim Saft


Actually, and here I am fishing in shallower waters than Taleb, there are elements of a typical Asperger's personality which are extremely useful in guarding against manias and bubbles.

THE EMPEROR'S NEW CLOTHES

People with Asperger's Syndrome are largely immune to social pressures; they often do not recognize them, or if they do, dismiss them as silly. They can be, in many ways, like the child in the Hans Christian Andersen story "The Emperor's New Clothes." In the story the emperor is sold a new suit made of a fabric that supposedly will be invisible to anyone who is not fit for the position they hold. The suit is a fraud, but the emperor, afraid of being one himself, pretends to be able to see it. Everyone else plays along until the emperor meets a child who calls it as he sees it and pierces the illusion.

Typical people, in order to make the numberless decisions they are forced to make with only limited data, rely heavily on taking their clues from what other people are doing -- following the herd. This has a certain efficiency but, as people place a heavy weight on what others are doing, leaves them open to be swept up in manias or bubbles.

This is true for individuals buying houses in 2005 because "everyone knows they will only go up" and it is true for fund managers making "momentum" investments in dotcom stocks. Fashion, for most people, is a powerful faculty-numbing force; just leaf through some old magazines and check out what people were wearing round about 1971.

For people on the Asperger's spectrum this is far less true; regardless of what people are talking about at cocktail parties, they won't believe that we can all grow rich by buying up one another's houses, nor will they take assurances from "authorities" as the final word. Having less fear of looking stupid than the rest of us, they will stand by what they perceive. They are also, at least in my experience, far less likely than the average person to hold a position cynically; because it benefits them rather than because they believe it.

That might not be the only type of person you want in a financial system, but those are some pretty valuable characteristics for a fund manger or banking regulator.

(Editing by James Dalgleish)

(At the time of publication James Saft did not own any direct investments in securities mentioned in this article. He may be an owner indirectly as an investor in a fund)


link:
http://in.reuters.com/article/economicN ... dChannel=0



good, some columnist countered the claims. Makes me somewhat happier.


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bicentennialman
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04 Feb 2010, 12:20 pm

For me, the confusing part of the article is that James Saft seems to present a point of view that opposes what he quotes Taleb as saying in his book. But in introducing this point of view, he says, "As someone with a family member with Asperger's, I think there is a lot of truth to what Taleb says, though perhaps he expresses himself too gruffly."

But the two points of view don't seem to be compatible at all, as Taleb seems to want to prevent people with Asperger's from having jobs that involve "risk-bearing" (What job does not involve risk-bearing?), while Saft's point is that Aspies have something helpful to contribute to the financial industry because they are not as likely to be swept away by the trends the crowd is following. But if Taleb got his way, Aspies would be excluded from the very jobs that Saft thinks they can contribute to. Yet the article does not acknowledge this.

Perhaps the article was written or edited poorly-- maybe it misrepresents what Saft is saying, or maybe it misrepresents what Taleb said in his book.



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04 Feb 2010, 12:49 pm

Taleb "ban" topic

Nissam's book is his swan song. He is an ugly duckling who will never grow up to be anything more than that. :P


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04 Feb 2010, 12:53 pm

Saft is right, but he doesn't really understand the Aspergian mindset any better than the jerk he's countering. I can't imagine an Aspie taking a job in anything called 'Risk Management', because taking risks (especially with money) is just illogical to begin with. No matter what the potential payoff, the potential disaster would outweigh it. Then again, economics is such an intellectual fantasyland, none of it really makes any logical sense to begin with. Inflation - what a crock! And yet world leaders and industrialists all over the planet just nod and harrumph as if it were something physically real. Talk about the emperor's invisible clothes...

Speaking of which, does anyone know of any Aspie gambling addicts? I'd bet there aren't many.



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04 Feb 2010, 12:55 pm

I think the 'author's' use of the term 'Asperger's Spectrum' (The Emperor's new clothes; fourth paragraph) is perhaps an indication of the firm grasp he has of the subject.

Couldn't help noticing that he seems to be from Alabama too!


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Last edited by Blindspot149 on 04 Feb 2010, 1:43 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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04 Feb 2010, 12:55 pm

Holy sh*t on a shingle!

I am still sticking to my belief that it was caused by a bunch of people buying houses they couldn't afford.


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04 Feb 2010, 1:28 pm

My comments were aimed at Nicholas Nassem taleb, not at Jim Saft. Should probably have been clearer in that regard.

Fwiw, I also think the recession was caused by people buying houses that they can't afford.


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04 Feb 2010, 1:31 pm

I know some people working in the financial services industry who promote funds.

A little while back a group of them was telling me about one of their 'absolute return' funds (aka hedge fund, aka roulette wheel).

They are FULL on NTs.

The diatribe was such a ham handed segue, that it was crying out to be torn apart; so I duly obliged, as I needed the exercise anyway.

The ONLY benefits they were extoling were; liquidity, transparency and its long and impressive record (before 2009 of course)

When I asked what was the point of investing in a 'liquid and transparent' fund that was losing money, the response was and I quote;

'It's the best among it's peers'

Leaving all of this out there are two other points that they failed to understand/didn't want to hear;

The black box trading programs (as well as the assumptions incorporated in the decision making of the human 'expert traders') are based on conditions before the GFC

These types of traders crow about how they make money in a falling or a rising market.

As Hannibal Lecter would say; 'Not any more'

The other issue is the fact that EVEN when these funds WERE making money, the drawdowns (that is the amount by which a fund can fall in value in a single month) could regularly be as high as 30% or MORE!! !!

The reason for the GFC is quite simple;

GREED


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04 Feb 2010, 1:49 pm

I think it was GREED what caused the crisis, nothing to do with autistics. That's my opinion before i read the article. After i read it, i will tell...

Well i think in the end he gives a positive view on people with Asperger's:

Quote:
Having less fear of looking stupid than the rest of us, they will stand by what they perceive. They are also, at least in my experience, far less likely than the average person to hold a position cynically; because it benefits them rather than because they believe it.


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04 Feb 2010, 3:21 pm

GeomAsp wrote:
I think it was GREED what caused the crisis, nothing to do with autistics. That's my opinion before i read the article. After i read it, i will tell...

Well i think in the end he gives a positive view on people with Asperger's:

Quote:
Having less fear of looking stupid than the rest of us, they will stand by what they perceive. They are also, at least in my experience, far less likely than the average person to hold a position cynically; because it benefits them rather than because they believe it.


Well yeah, its common sense that it was greed, especially on the part of the consumer. The consumers taking out massive loans they could not afford because of lax regulation. The banking industry needs a hell of a lot more regulation. Loans shouldnt be extremely easy to get. And as TimTex has said, the housing market is mostly to blame. I also feel the same for the automotive industry. Ive known people on welfare whore got loans for both a 300k+ house and a f*****g hummer H-1.

So yeah, the stupidity of the common human being is what is definately at fault. It shames me that I am a human being.


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