Can we develop social skills like a martial art?

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No because you are really good at articulating this stuff, I've noted that consistently, and there are people that really need to read it that might not be posting. I think you have a knack for it.

I've got two questions memesplice, if you don't mind.

1. What is "Evolution Day?"

2. About this:

Are you saying that NTs are, as a rule, stupid, or am I misinterpreting it?

Very interesting metaphor. AmberEyes made a very good point during a conversation with me about how to prevent bullying. She had the idea that what people needed was 'social aikido', where you use people's aggression against them. She gave the example of, if someone called you a b***h, instead of insulting back, say something like 'Okay, why am I a b***h? I'm listening. I'd like your constructive criticism'. It's a good idea - nine times out of ten the bully can't think of anything to say, and you've dealt with the situation effectively without behaving in any way that might put the blame on yourself.

LMAO.

I don't think so. We have been defined by people who have no idea what living on the inside is like.

The DSM shows an outside view, with no look at what each trait measeured is related to.

Groups that let others define them are soon extirminated.

To self define, and in the context of, there are no NTs, all humans do not have a common system that we lack.

As Aurore points out, Borderline, Histrionic PD, are types we have a lot more problems with.

With one in seven spending time in a mental instituion, mostly for depression, 5% in jail, and another 10% on probation, parole, a good supply of drunks and druggies, common thugs, and us marked by reading books, having intense hobbies, and mostly not bothering to talk to anyone, there are other reasons for all of our reactions.

As I mentioned, those who deal with all have their own group, and rules. Doctors, Police, could also be in the DSM.

I see the point that they are not all out to get us, that mostly it is a reaction based in them not knowing how to react, we are rare, and just as much as knowing who to avoid, there must be some that we would interact with better.

While I see a strong common thread, we are not all alike. Self defining must go beyond one, and just as the DSM sees us from the outside, we can post the same from the inside.

Someone posted a humorous version of Myers Briggs, the rest of the story. Those are strong enough types that we can learn to read them, if not the flashing social cues, we can at least understand the personality type.

We do have enough in common to propose how any personality type would react to autistic people.

No NTs, but our group dealing with other groups, is not all bullies, psychopaths, and with family, old friends, employers, many say they have had good relations.

We can do it if we self define, for the DSM is not much of a guide to life, and if we identify the groups we deal with, what their key traits are, which to avoid, and how.

A curse on everyone, you are all human! Humans do like a predictable world where they think they understand.

In business management it is well known that some workers need the almost constant support of close managment, and minor rewards to show they are doing well. Other workers will do thier jobs for months without any interaction and over managing leads to problems. Autistics are not the only people who gravitate away from the herd.

When fixing computers in an office I come right out and say I am not a people person, I will have nothing to do with the personel, and do not answer questions while I am hanging upside down under a desk. Please deal with your own people, I do my fastest work when not interrupted. I get what I asked for, and often after 5 on Friday.

I am no different than the guys who install carpet, we are going to do this when no one is around.

Our problems come from a lack of context, and a plan. Since we are the strange minority, it is our role to say how we can function in the world.

As for dealing with the whole world, no one does. A few good at names might claim to know hundreds, but most only deal with a few. They fear what is outside their small world, and we trigger that fear.

I am very good with large animals, wild animals, and it is all in making them comfortable in your presence. If you leave it to them to figure you out, you get trampled or eaten. There is a moment, shall I run or attack, which is when I introduce myself with soft words. I am not a threat or prey. There is such a space in all creatures.

A lot has been written about wolves, they seem to ask, may I eat you? In what is called the stare of death, some run, they are eaten, some ignore the wolves, and some come and stare at them, and the wolves go away. Sometimes when they do not leave soon enough a deer will charge, and they have this dance with the front feet that can do serious damage.

Even here, a wolf pack and a deer, it is not a set thing, the deer's response drives the whole action.

We are a person from a strange tribe that they meet in the forest, Fight or flight?

To make contact with a strange tribe you camp in the open, within sight, and let them know you know they are there, but have shown yourself, giving the not friend or foe signal. Letting them come to you, another language, another culture, opens the neutral space.

There are old and deep rituals to overcome these problems, we my not play their game, but there is an older game, they still know it.

Temple Grandin says we have animal minds, they do too.

I love your posts, Inventor. And yours, Memesplice. Very interesting.

One thing you just mentioned there, Inventor, that rings very true for me, is in approaching the animals, you deliberately make yourself non threatening, but also you show them somehow that you are to be respected, and not eaten. And I've realised that I've been doing this with people lately, and things have gotten easier for me. Instead of waiting for the other to define the interaction, you take control, and make things easier for both. This is hard for me, because naturally I feel a desire to not get involved at all, which I think other parties can interpret very negatively.

What is Evolution Day?

For example

1.Nature has a design issue . One of its latest types can't pick up a particular shaped stone it needs to make a make the most suitable nest. Nature breeds loads of them each slightly varied until one of them can pick up the stone. It takes ten thousand years to reach this solution. It now has a bigger more articulate set of mandibles. ( Yipeee, thanks Nature)

2. Human brain looks at a similar stone problem. Condenses ten thousand years of evolutionary history, abstracts the rules of leverage and articulation Nature eventually arrived at, and figures out a way of wrapping arms around the stone and holding it to its chest to move the stone.


3. Human brain examines a problem. It condenses Nature's solutions and abstractions in 2 .
It spots the underlying patterns and rules in all those things. It realizes these are the underlying "codes" that currently manifest in language art maths music etc. It is a common "base code".There is no medium by which to currently express this . It invents one, because it can.
It can because it has a weird brain, wired up differently to the rest of the current brains. ( Wop e do de dooo! Thanks Nature)



These are orders of magnitude of abstraction. Fortunately for the NT's still using order 2 magnitude those on order 3 magnitude are driven by largely benign ,passionate obsessive interests and they have little concern in social status class race and other NT fabrications of self reference which lead to war and conflict, but it is best for those still stuck with order 2 cognitive operating systems not to piss order 3's, off too, much.

Hey, we can't help the way our brains are wired up, can we? And they don't understand.

Last edited by memesplice on 06 Mar 2010, 1:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

For what it's worth, this is what I've learned about dealing with neurotypicals over the last 49 years.

The first thing to understand is that when neurotypicals try to communicate, the words generally have only a peripheral link to the message. The first thing they typically look for is emotional overtones or undertones, real or imagined. If it can be construed as an insult or a threat, it usually is.

The way to avoid that is to be very careful in one's wording. To another aspie, one can just write what one means, but for consumption by the general public, it's safer to add three parts reassurance and ego stroking for every one part of actual meaning. And, of course, one has to take twice as much time polishing things to make sure nothing can be taken the wrong way. Overall, that means it takes me about eight times as long to write the same thing in a way where it will be understood by the average neurotypical the way I mean it.

Now, that's only worth doing when I really want to communicate. Usually it's not worth the trouble, and I just cede the field to the neurotypicals. However, there is one other thing that can be done if one just wants good relations.

Instead of adding three parts reassurance and ego stroking for one part meaning, drop the meaning completely and just use one part reassurance and ego stroking. Say something positive about them. It can be completely unrelated to the conversation, as far as the words go, but it will usually get you out of trouble.

Ideally, pick out something true to compliment them on. However, even if they have no redeeming qualities, just pick some random ego boost. It may leave you feeling dirty, so you may not want to do it too often, but it usually still works when you really need it.

It is not really Martial Arts we need, though basic Tai Chi might not hurt. It is rather that I am living in someone else's country [been there, done that]. I am not clear on the laws, a bit hazy on local rules of politeness, my command of the language is faulty - bad accent, I don't get the jokes, a lot of words are Greek to me. I don't know all the parts of town where it is not safe to walk, and when I am in the market they see me coming and up go all the prices.

So - we walk carefully, we learn to apologize, and we try to find who will help us out.

If I had 100 different scenarios for how any single conversation could go, I could memorize them all -- and probably dictate to you how every one differs, perhaps as well as tell you what page they're on -- and know exactly how to respond. Unfortunately, I've yet to find a resource with those 100 versions of the same conversation. I read a book about "crucial conversations" and am given two measly samples.

I feel obliged to point out that Philologos said "a lot of words are Greek to me".

I don't think this deserves anything but perpetual rolling eyes.

Go forth and learn all you can with your massive intellect and become that social ninja.

(I'll stick to my 12 gauge shotgun for protection.)

I don't have time to read the whole thread, but I agree with the basic idea, totally.

We can't instinctively engage in social strategies and interactions, but we can learn them with great effort and build the practices into our lives.

One thing I've had to do is let go of the notion that NT's understand reality the way I do.

They live in their own little deluded bubbles of role-playing imagination, and if you understand their narratives and meme scheme, you can interact with them in ways they understand.

However, without projecting a narrative yourself and without having a role-playing agenda and persona to push on others, they will still sense your "weirdness" and be triggered into rejecting you and bullying you.

I have found the construction of a pseudo-role-playing narrative and projecting it, is much like learning and practicing a martial art.

I'm not into this intellectual " superiority thing. I like the idea of being able to fight back if required.I prefer the idea of never having to fight back, but my experience leads me to believe this will never be a reality. I also think that making out you are thick, when you are not in order for them not to attack you is a non-strategy. I've tried this and that doesn't work either.

Daniel - one day we might need something more substantial than relatively small caliber, non- automatic weapons to protect ourselves if the you-know-who's ever become fashionable again and decide to come after us on a cull. What starts as electro-shocking kiddies in behavioral schools can end somewhere far more dark and shall we say evil , that banal evil, if you get my drift. Build the Stage 3 "mind bomb" - you know , it's a pretty damn big deterrent. In the meantime perhaps we can figure out how to protect ourselves a bit better.

I’ve Googled and there are lots of martial arts therapies out there being taught to Aspies and ADHDers offering “survival skills”: how to breathe and stay calm in difficult situations.

Wax on wax off.

What struck me about martial arts is the philosophy of respect and self-discipline that’s taught. Respect for self and others. Especially the respect for the teacher. This is a far cry from what I’ve witnessed taking place in schools where teachers are yelled at by kids and are asked inappropriate personal questions. The kids shout:

“Hey Doc wazzup? How yer doin’ mate? Dave’s your first name innit?”

And slap the poor startled man on the back. The school classroom is in chaos and completely out of control. I think that a lot of sensory issues and social issues would be easier to manage if school classrooms were quieter and more disciplined.

I don’t know about larger martial arts classes though.
I’ve never been to martial arts classes.
I'm afraid of going.
After my abysmal failures at staying in sync and getting overwhelmed during crowded dance lessons, I think that smaller classes would probably be better.

I especially like this idea of a mentorship approach with one on one training.
When I used to study academically, I found this sort of method of instruction very helpful.
If someone can devote his/her full attention to you, you tend to learn more effectively. Plus, the room is less crowded and noisy. There’s also more opportunity for the student to “bounce ideas off” of the teacher *idiom*. There’s fewer people in the room and that means less social competition to attract the teacher’s attention.

Also, if this mentor was to view his/her student as a capable person and taught practical social/coping techniques that could be applied to real life, the student would no longer feel like a “helpless victim”. The student could feel more in control of life and gain confidence. Once someone stops seeing his or herself as a “victim”, s/he can start to take more responsibility for his/her own actions. S/he stops placing the blame on other people so much and tries to take practical steps to improve his/her situation. I don't think that being pitied and encouraging people to "wallow in their own misery" does them much good.

Being taught practical techniques for social defence and negotiation skills i.e. conflict prevention I think would be far more useful in the long run than constantly having to run to an emotional counsellor who responds with that internal question:

“How does it make you feel?”


Sure, I think that “having a shoulder to cry on” can be comforting occasionally if you’re really upset.

However, being overly dependent on someone and seeing yourself as a “victim” I don’t think is very proactive. It doesn’t solve the core problem of how to deal with the social conflict that’s causing your pain. Or indeed how to move on from it. I think that defensive strategies are what’s needed.

I was intrigued by aikido and the idea of “using an opponents’ own energy against him”. I think that this idea could be applied to verbal self-defence in social conflict situations.

I don’t know.


Maybe some verbal self-defence tactics (perhaps adapted from those used by police officers) could be used to defend against confrontations?

Also, perhaps methods for dealing with “difficult people”, such as “The Broken Record” technique could be also used?

There’s also this issue of picking your battles carefully and not charging recklessly into trouble when you don’t have the social back-up.

Also, how to “stand your ground” in an emergency when you're alone, or when the social support structure isn’t there.

I think that social skills training should focus on how to get social back-up and use this as defence during an emergency, rather than someone trying to train people to be “normal”. I think that this would be especially useful for girls.

I also believe that any social self-defence should be taught by someone who knows what it’s like to be taken advantage of and is a survivor. This kind of person would inspire students (and would probably provide much more useful information) than someone well meaning who is socially adept, but hasn’t had this life experience.


“Riding the wave” is an interesting idea.
I think that conversation has a rhythm to it.
If one could be trained to respond to that rhythm and “match the beat” of the interaction, maybe this could be used to help establish a rapport?

I don’t know if perhaps some kind of musical “call and response” type therapy?
Perhaps people could be trained to “beat match” or at least do a variation on the “musical theme” of the conversation. Or at least contribute the odd useful note or helpful scat improvisation here and there, even if it isn’t always possible to “sing along with the tribal chorus”.

In the past, I've found drama and humanities lessons very helpful with understanding social interaction, particularly the concept of a "story". I found thinking about how the characters feel in different situations enlightening.

Perhaps emotional modulation and self control techniques could be useful?

I think that many so called NTs would be prepared to help us, if they knew what the issues were and weren't afraid. I think that there are some genuine people out there. Also, if people think that you have something tangible to offer, they are often willing to help. That's been my experience anyway.


Oh yeah and…

Always look eye!

I trained in Kung Fu.....

My master was 16th generation Grandmaster in Kung Fu from China......

He taught me......

Tolerance, peace, quiet, reflection, qi........

And strength.

It was the least angry I have ever been.....

So yes, right master, right martial art.......and all things are possible.

Give something a go and see how you feel.

Mics