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gassy
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05 Apr 2010, 8:17 am

LostAlien wrote:
Bear in mind that what I'm saying is a guess. I think your brother is supressing his feelings and thus the cause of his distress. He's then getting frustrated because he can't find the solution (that he's either consiously or unconsiounsly). Perhaps there's also an element of fear, it makes him feel so bad and perhaps in some way thinks that it will hurt really bad to look at it.

I'm speaking from my own experience, I was afraid to look at my feelings because, when they were supressed, they felt so bad and I felt that looking at the feeling/problem/source would hurt more than dealing with it. The way I got past the fear, I think was, to use calming excersises, and when very very calm, asking myself what harm is there in looking. I also had a person ask me to promise them to tell them when I was really low and/or suicidal.

This may not be his issue at all but it's worth thinking about.

The promise thing mostly works, it lets the person know that you care and means that you'll have an idea of where he's at mentally.


I think until a couple of months ago in some respects he was. He was trying to solve his own problems and feelings but talking to people and trying to "give away the problem" has helped but like i said he still is trying solving it as he feels its almost become part of his instinctive behaviour (and maybe even purpose in life as some have stated previously - either consciously or subconsciously)

Im not sure if it is fear though of looking at the problem, but there might be a fear of what the problem has caused him to be like. For instance he instinctively feels he is losing his friends (im pretty sure this isn't actually the case but it is still how he is perceiving it to be, even though we are telling him that his friends are still there) and it is possible he might be fearful that he is telling us the wrong thing (as he feels the problem changes) and therefore we wont be able to find a solution (this part of the problem changing is something im very struggling to relate to so i could be explaining it wrong).

Also when it comes to meditation, he used to do it quite a lot but now i think that this has now gone so deep that any effects of it will be very short term



artificialman
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05 Apr 2010, 8:22 am

for me, ive discovered i am "missing" something. some of it are feelings. i have more or less decided i am who i am, and learned to fake what i cant feel. this acceptance is what got me off problem solving my issue. although once agian, i dont think telling him he cant cahnge is going to be a good thing.



gassy
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05 Apr 2010, 8:37 am

artificialman wrote:
yea.. the purpose idea would explain the cycle you were refering too. just do the promise, and keep an eye on him. get him invovled in other things, voluteer work maybe. you could even tell him that youll willing to help him figure out the problem and when your done your going to do somethiing else together. give him a future beyond his issues.


The bit highlighted in bold is what we've been told to do but if he ends up feeling he cant do that then he might start to question whether there is any other way of solving it especially with the embeddedness of the thought. So he might end up perceiving it to be the last non-drugged solution which i feel may end up being the case.

i'd be interested to know if somebody in this sort of field has experience of this sort of thing and if they've taken any medication, and whether it would help?

What you say about the future is also very true. At the moment we are just concentrating on the very short term ie doing something he enjoys and uses some thinking but not to much, like going to the cinema, watching a live football match. it at least makes him not think to much about the problem to much, but also not make him mentally tired. in addition though, he also has exams coming up like i said previously. this could be very beneficial as he needs to concentrate on the revision for these and i think he will and actually wants to. however due to the instinctiveness he always says it is playing at the back of his mind in some degree, and on the rare occasions it isn't, it is only for the very short term.



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05 Apr 2010, 3:55 pm

It would seem to me that if your brother has been diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome, as you say, then he already knows what his 'problem' is. It will help some if he familiarizes himself with the disorder and what it's effects are (and this is a great place to do that). It also helps to know that many others are struggling with the same issues and feelings. While that 'problem' is never likely to disappear, it's less a 'problem' than a condition.

However, if I may offer a rather simplistic suggestion, it sounds to me as though a lot of his malaise might be alleviated by finding a purpose. A job, or a hobby, connected to an obsessive special interest - but something that leads to a tangible result - whether that result is acquisition of money to amass a collection of action figures, or making Faberge eggs, or learning to play the guitar. Suicidal impulses are precipitated by excruciatingly painful feelings of hopelessness and lack of purpose. And why should someone be expected to remain on this planet, feeling like an alien Stranger in a Strange Land, suffering humiliation, bullying, discrimination, exclusion and a general lack of understanding and compassion from the indigenous natives if there's no discernible reason for doing so - no joy whatsoever in the midst of the discomfort?



gassy
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05 Apr 2010, 5:24 pm

Willard wrote:
It would seem to me that if your brother has been diagnosed with Asperger Syndrome, as you say, then he already knows what his 'problem' is. It will help some if he familiarizes himself with the disorder and what it's effects are (and this is a great place to do that). It also helps to know that many others are struggling with the same issues and feelings. While that 'problem' is never likely to disappear, it's less a 'problem' than a condition.

However, if I may offer a rather simplistic suggestion, it sounds to me as though a lot of his malaise might be alleviated by finding a purpose. A job, or a hobby, connected to an obsessive special interest - but something that leads to a tangible result - whether that result is acquisition of money to amass a collection of action figures, or making Faberge eggs, or learning to play the guitar. Suicidal impulses are precipitated by excruciatingly painful feelings of hopelessness and lack of purpose. And why should someone be expected to remain on this planet, feeling like an alien Stranger in a Strange Land, suffering humiliation, bullying, discrimination, exclusion and a general lack of understanding and compassion from the indigenous natives if there's no discernible reason for doing so - no joy whatsoever in the midst of the discomfort?


Okay I just spoken to him after not seeing him for a couple of days.

Unless I've mis-read your definition of what knowing is, then that is the actual problem.
He doesn't.
He isn't sure whether the problem is to do: with himself, what he is, whether its been caused by something external or even whether the problem is there in the first place.

Sorry if i didn't make that clear before.

The suggestion of finding an interest with tangible effects is a good one and has been something i've been considering especially when we take him out and do things. However one of the problems is that most if not all his interests involve thinking and learning things, as opposed to actually doing something like playing the guitar, cooking, gardening etc.

Also thanks for the person who suggested volunteer work, but i think its a little to soon for that at the moment.

Also after speaking to him again he said he does (at the very least on a conscious level) have tangile aims in life for the future including going to uni to study physics and then carrying that on for a career which is a good sign but he feels he needs to solve this problem of depression before he can do that.

Sorry if this sounds like i've contradicted myself a bit and confused everyone here but to some it up i think, he thinks he's feeling sad and depressed, trying to find out the reason why and how to solve it, is unable to do so, and feeling more sad and depressed as a result.

Also he is going to be seeing his psychologist on wednesday and i'd be suprised if he isn't put on some form of medication sooner or later.

Thankyou for everybody's input and suggestions so far, they've all been very helpful :)



gassy
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05 Apr 2010, 5:35 pm

artificialman wrote:
for me, ive discovered i am "missing" something. some of it are feelings. i have more or less decided i am who i am, and learned to fake what i cant feel. this acceptance is what got me off problem solving my issue. although once agian, i dont think telling him he cant cahnge is going to be a good thing.


As he isn't (and im not) sure of exactly the problem so cant say anything for sure, but i think its more the inability to understand what his feelings and emotions are, as opposed to not having any (though that could be part of it).

Acceptance is a big problem i think (i have a similar problem). Im unsure if he feels he can accept anything, whether its "logical" or not as it would be based on his "logic and rationale" being correct which he doesn't know. As a result i think he might feel any solution is little more than a guess which causes him to remain in the circle i stated previously



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05 Apr 2010, 5:53 pm

I'm not sure why an antidepressant of one kind or another would be a problem. I have AS and have suffered from severe clinical depression most of my life. I am on antidepressants and they really do help -- basically, when I'm depressed it's like drowning. It's all I can do to keep my head above water. The medications are a life raft; it keeps me afloat while I manage everything else. It might be easier for your brother to identify his problems if he's not struggling so hard with depression that he is contemplating suicide.

Is he a minor? If not, his doctor needs his express, written consent to tell your parents anything. And honestly, who can trust a doctor who runs off to tell others what you thought you were sharing in private?



gassy
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05 Apr 2010, 6:30 pm

Rose_in_Winter wrote:
I'm not sure why an antidepressant of one kind or another would be a problem. I have AS and have suffered from severe clinical depression most of my life. I am on antidepressants and they really do help -- basically, when I'm depressed it's like drowning. It's all I can do to keep my head above water. The medications are a life raft; it keeps me afloat while I manage everything else. It might be easier for your brother to identify his problems if he's not struggling so hard with depression that he is contemplating suicide.

Is he a minor? If not, his doctor needs his express, written consent to tell your parents anything. And honestly, who can trust a doctor who runs off to tell others what you thought you were sharing in private?


Im just thinking that as i heard it can take a little while to figure out the corrct dosage for him it might affect his prep for his exams and if he fails it might cause further problems, but i guess as Callista (?) stated, solving the most important problem first and taking it one step at a time is probably the best way to go about it.

Also the other concern i have is that even though the drugs might "actually" make him less depressed, he might still think he is depressed due to this going on for so long as well as being unable to understand his feelings and emotions.
So im not entirely sure if drugs will be able to work (but this is based on me having little knowledge about the whole field)

Well, he is 17 at the moment and we live in the UK so i'd presume he would be classified as a minor, but either way as he really wants this to go away i'd imagine he would be prepared to give consent if asked.



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06 Apr 2010, 12:47 pm

gassy wrote:
Unless I've mis-read your definition of what knowing is, then that is the actual problem.
He doesn't.
He isn't sure whether the problem is to do: with himself, what he is, whether its been caused by something external or even whether the problem is there in the first place.

Sorry if i didn't make that clear before.


8O I'm not sure that can be made clear. I'll have to puzzle over that for a while. It reminds me of one of those higher math problems where you're supposed to find a number that's the sum of two other numbers, but you're not told what any of them are. Blank-plus-blank-equals-blank, and there is only ONE answer. Hmmm... :?



gassy
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06 Apr 2010, 1:53 pm

Willard wrote:
gassy wrote:
Unless I've mis-read your definition of what knowing is, then that is the actual problem.
He doesn't.
He isn't sure whether the problem is to do: with himself, what he is, whether its been caused by something external or even whether the problem is there in the first place.

Sorry if i didn't make that clear before.


8O I'm not sure that can be made clear. I'll have to puzzle over that for a while. It reminds me of one of those higher math problems where you're supposed to find a number that's the sum of two other numbers, but you're not told what any of them are. Blank-plus-blank-equals-blank, and there is only ONE answer. Hmmm... :?


Well the result is (the thought of) depression but yeah apart from that its pretty much like you said. The way i was thinking of it was like a+b+c+.....=0 but we're not sure how many causes (if any) and how much they're weighted by.

Please dont dwell on it to much though, i dont want you or anyone else to get depressed as a result! :)

But thankyou Willard and everybody else for all your help so far :)



nika7
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06 Apr 2010, 2:07 pm

I get suicidal and depressed when I get to lonely... and that is often and unpredictable. it can change fast with my emotions. Here is the biggest problem though. I say I am lonely and everyone else thinks THEY know how to fix it. "Yes, you are lonely dear?" *places hand on shoulder* "Yes and STOP TOUCHING ME!! !". People want me to go out and talk to people and do more things to someone beat the depression but it is often the more things and over-stimulation from that that can cause more anxiety and depression. The trick for me has been to find a balance. i require around 3 or 4 hours a day of silence with no social interaction. I require another 2-3 of just being with one or two close people. Still that is 7 hours a day (half my day) of having to really measure out how much stimulation I am getting. I need people around me, but I need that silence too. So I have to use the time in a day where I can handle people wisely.

Look for causes that dont make sense too... like feeling different, not feeling well physically, over-stimulation, and so forth. Some of those can be a big deal.

hope this helps. tell your brother to hang in there... it's not just him



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06 Apr 2010, 2:10 pm

He's not depressed because someone or something is inhibiting his primary interest, is it?



gassy
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06 Apr 2010, 3:57 pm

nika7 wrote:
I get suicidal and depressed when I get to lonely... and that is often and unpredictable. it can change fast with my emotions. Here is the biggest problem though. I say I am lonely and everyone else thinks THEY know how to fix it. "Yes, you are lonely dear?" *places hand on shoulder* "Yes and STOP TOUCHING ME!! !". People want me to go out and talk to people and do more things to someone beat the depression but it is often the more things and over-stimulation from that that can cause more anxiety and depression. The trick for me has been to find a balance. i require around 3 or 4 hours a day of silence with no social interaction. I require another 2-3 of just being with one or two close people. Still that is 7 hours a day (half my day) of having to really measure out how much stimulation I am getting. I need people around me, but I need that silence too. So I have to use the time in a day where I can handle people wisely.

Look for causes that dont make sense too... like feeling different, not feeling well physically, over-stimulation, and so forth. Some of those can be a big deal.

hope this helps. tell your brother to hang in there... it's not just him


Hmm im actually not to sure. In some respects loneliness may have a part but i don't know. Like i said before he said at times he feels he is losing his friends and he might be scared he might lose them all but he says he think its due to the depression rather than the other way round but it probably is causing him to go in (another) cycle. Also he is planning on going to uni in september where he wouldn't know anybody, and he seems a little concerned he wont be able to make friends there.

Like i said it seems to me more of an affect rather than a cause, though due to that it seems like its causing to exasperate the problem, so thanks for that :)

Ive been trying to look at it from a logical angle but you're right looking at potential causes which may not seem particularly logical is important, thanks for that, and thanks for the encouragement :)



gassy
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06 Apr 2010, 4:04 pm

Shebakoby wrote:
He's not depressed because someone or something is inhibiting his primary interest, is it?


The problem seems to be he is depressed because this problem (ie whats causing the depression) is preventing him doing his primary interest which has meant solving this "problem" has become his primary interest.

However it has occured to me that maybe his (other) interests aren't "obsessive" or "important" enough to him which means he may feel that he will lack any purpose or aim.

But he doesn't seem like he can find a more "special" interest until he is solved this problem (or got out of this depressive state).



Upochapo
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06 Apr 2010, 4:53 pm

Wow. Ok. So, here's how I see it. The BEST thing you can do is break this down.

Your brother is depressed. There is normal depression and unhealthy depression. Your brother is experiencing unhealthy depression. The indicator is obviously the suicide thoughts.

In unhealthy depression, I have learned through therapy that the direct cause/link is anxiety. Your brother is caught in a never ending spiral that goes down and down and down and down. Anxiety itself can manifest itself in many forms. It is one nasty ugly beast. One of the most common end results is depression.

When I have been depressed, it was almost always the case that I was in my head. Your original post tells me that your brother is spending WAY too much time in his head. This seems to be natural or normal for an aspie. I know exactly what he is going through. And, when he can't solve the problem in his mind he will get anxious, angry and frustrated and this will manifest itself with even MORE depression causing him to spiral even more downward.

What I think would be best in my opinion at this point is to stop obsessing with what the problem may be. Ultimately, he may never figure it out in a depressed state. What your brother really needs to do is start listening to his body for feedback and start analyzing it. i.e. His feelings, reactions, etc. The body is just as smart as the mind. It instinctively knows what it wants and/or needs. His mind and body are at odds with each other and are not in sync.

He needs to say to himself, 'ok, I feel depressed. If I'm having these thoughts something definitely is boogered up somewhere. If unhealthy depression can manifest from anxiety, what is making me anxious or upsetting me or making me angry? This is where self awareness and listening to your body comes into play. It's a skill that can be developed over time. It's not important at this time to figure out the true source is but understanding what is happening so that your brother can start to climb his way out of the spiral. It is not easy but definitely not impossible. Anti-depressants is one way to "jump-start" the brain. Sometimes through exploration by sharing and talking the source can make itself known.

Once your brother can start climbing out of the depressed state and allowing himself to feel anger, excitement, frustrated and feeling anxious. Then, you can start working on what the true source is. Because depression is basically the absence of emotion, his body shut down emotions. He needs the emotional feedback before identifiying exactly what that cause is. Right now, he's just going to keep going in circles in his head. It's hard to break the cycle that he is in but he has to recognize the cycle and stop the spiral downward. Once he recognizes that he is in a loop he may be able to help free himself from going around in circles.

I caught that your brother said he is fine with certain things and feel he isn't giving the WHOLE truth. That tells me that he is looking at everything and trying to incorporate it all in his mind. When he thinks about something one way he is fine with it. When he thinks about it another way it really gets under his skin. Sounds like he may be constantly shifting his perspective and it will drive him batty and it's frustrating him. And, trying to rationalize things and make it all fit and he probably is having conflicting feelings and ping-ponging between emotions based on what perspective he is viewing a problem or situation.



Upochapo
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06 Apr 2010, 5:18 pm

A couple other things. Since your brother has Asperger's, one of the things that could be causing the depression is any recent or upcoming changes in your brother's life. I would explore those areas.

As far as medication, I know you have concerns about the exams and stuff and they are valid concerns, but it is a viable option. Like I said, it's good for the jump starting of emotions and stuff. Think of the antidepressant like a bandage. That is what it really is. It doesn't solve the problem but it stops the bleeding and protects him from harm and helps facilitate the exploration of finding the source of the problem and once the source can be identified, then you can look at removing the bandage if he feels he doesn't need it any more. The proper course of action will be a judgment call.

When you view the mind and the body as two separate entities it can help explain of what is happening and why it is happening. One can't live without the other. The two have a tendency to look for a natural equilibrium. And, when you look at it this way you can see that his body has effectively shutdown all emotions and feelings because it has become too overwhelming for his system to handle. Since the body has shutdown all feelings and emotions, the tendency for his mind is to find a state of equilibrium. The suicidal thoughts are a way to find that balance or equilibrium. That is why he needs to try and start getting the emotions and feelings flowing. One of the keys of knowing what is happening to you is that it can help to start trigger emotions and feelings as well and start the exploration on his own.

This is all based on my experiences of course. Hope it helps.