Schizoids on the spectrum?

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Brothers on the slide.

ASD and Schizoid PD do seem quite similar. I once tentatively diagnosed myself as schizoid.

I think the key difference (or the one I have picked out) is that schizoids (apparently, according to the diagnostic criteria in the DSM) don't feel any need for relationships, and AS folks mostly do, but fail in trying to establish them.

Schizoid PD really could use a renaming to avoid confusion with schizophrenia.

This forum is full of threads where people claims to be associal (or even anti-social, but this is usually a confusion with associal).

Yes, I wonder about that. I myself thought I was asocial. I think a certain attitude can form in the rejected of 'if I can't have it, then I don't want it'. I wonder whether the diagnostic criteria for SPD was formed from observation and/or conversation with such aspies. I don't know.

schizotypal is not in any way related to schizoid i think.

i was also diagnosed as schizoid when i was 24 when a lawyer sent me to a psychiatrist after i was caught 3 times traveling in excess of 160 kph.
schizoid is an extreme lack of interest in communion with other people.

i have an acquaintance who i think is schizotypal, and he is severely incorrect in his view of the world in my opinion.

he is almost psychotic in his view of what is happening.
he thinks in a way that is based upon some higher being setting the events that befall him in his life. he says that "god" is putting him through an ordeal that is not otherwise experienced by normal people.
he reads meaning into license plates on cars, and he sees references to his life in the words on sign posts.
he has many ideas of reference to his own subjective life that he gleans from unrelated things like cracks in the footpath.
he believes in "vibes" that he is constantly harassed by, and he rings me up and says things like

him: err...she's totally over me.
me: what makes you think that?
him: her vibe is gone and i know she is in love with someone else.
me: have you verified that by talking to her?
him: oh don't be so stupid!! ! i feel her vibe, and it is not good toward me!! !.
me: sorry i am not able to feel "vibes" so i think....
him: just shut up will you ! !! !???? i feel that she is interested in someone else and i feel that she is no longer thinking about me!! !
me: well i am sorry but i think you should verify it...
him: i don't need to f**cking verify it you idiot!! ! i can feel it
me: well i am tired so goodbye. (i hang up)

he thinks that "god" has burdened him with a weight that he struggles to live with and he is angry that i seem so free of concern that he wants to hit me.

he notes number plates on cars, and if they say anything that he can imagine is an acronym of how he feels, he is convinced that it is proof of the supernatural control that is steering his life.

actually i am rambling and i must go to sleep soon so i will end here.

I don't see much point in diagnosing men who turned out to be successful authors?

Unless you want shizotypal/AS types to feel even WORSE about themselves because they can't even write a book ....

It is a possibility, but I doubt - if the concept of SPD was created from the observation of a subtype of aspies, the prevalence of SPD should be lower than the prevalence of AS, instead of higher.

I can't seem to google when Schizoid PD became a DSM dx, but I'm sure it's before 1994. Anyway, that's probably going to screw up the prevalence numbers. Pre-1994 it's possible that most people with AS were dx'ed SPD since AS didn't exist. That could lead to SPD seeming more prevalent.

I am not talking about the number of people efectivly diagnosed with AS and SPD - I am talking about that kind of studies where the researchers take a sample of the population and test them for some condition(s).

Usually when these studies are made to Asperger Syndrome, the results are in 0,25%-0,5% range; when they are made for Personality Disorders, the results for Schizoid PD are much more varied (sometimes nobody meets the criteria; sometimes are more than 10%), but usually the results are in 0,5%-3% range.

SPD is on the schizophrenia spectrum. If I have understood it correctly it goes like this:
Schizoid - schizotypal - schizoaffective - schizophrenia

There are differences between AS and schizoid personality, but there are also quite a few traits common, especially for the aloof Aspies.

For me 2 +3 + 5 = Completely true.
1: First part is true, but not the part about “including being part of a family”
4: False. I only like what I like, though, and I really can’t stand the ones I don’t. Very B/W thinking.
6: I have no idea how I appear, but I don’t really care very much about praise. If someone thinks something I did/made was good, that’s nice, of course, but I wouldn’t enjoy doing it any less if they didn’t. Criticism annoys me. I’d never change, though, because someone wanted me to. For instance, everyone has given me crap about my hair style since I was about 19 (well, before that, too, but the one I have now is about 13 years old), but I don’t care that they don’t like it – I do and it’s my hair. I never know how to respond to praise, and if it’s something I find trivial (like: nice T-shirt) then I wonder why they bother say somenthing so sorry braindead. I don’t say it, but I wonder how shallow they are if a common T-shirt elicits such elation.
7: I’m aloof IRL. No flattened effect. I thoroughly enjoy my interests and I love my family and my pets. I can probably appear cold, since I never know how to express things and show concern.
B: This is the cross road. I’m an Aspie and AS is a PDD. So per this definition I can not be schizoid.




How I fit:
1: I’m aloof. No flattened effect. I thoroughly enjoy my interests and I love my family and my pets. I can probably appear cold, since I never know how to express things and show concern.
2: I seem to manage the negative ones just fine, but I can’t say I love you or I’m fond of you. Partly true. Although I do know my feelings, I can’t express them.
3 + 4 + 7 + 8 + 9: Completely true.
5: I don’t really care very much about praise. If someone thinks something I did/made was good, that’s nice, of course, but I wouldn’t enjoy doing it any less if they didn’t. Criticism annoys me but I’d never change just because someone wanted me to.
6: False. I only like what I like, though, and I really can’t stand the ones I don’t. Very B/W thinking.

So by WHO’s criteria I fit the schizoid criteria.

However, many of these are common traits in AS as well.
And while I have an aloof nature, it doesn’t explain such things as why I can’t come up with a topic (other than my interests) even if I wanna talk to someone, why I can’t keep a conversation going, nor my obsessive interests, my tendency to space out or my fascination with spinning/flashing things and water. Nor can it explain why eye contact is torture for me, why I can’t read body language or why I never liked being touched.

I can't help think that another possibility is that these different names have come as a result of different psychs seeing different traits in different people and thought it different issues. I have seen autistic people being refered to as snowflakes as we display it so differently even inside the same sub-group.


I think this is interesting. Sula Wolff has written a book called "Loner" which is about AS and SPD, but I haven't been able to get it yet, so I don't know if it's something interesting there. If someone here has read it, maybe they could share their impression of it?

I read this book. My impression is that she was of the opinion that SPD and AS are the same basic condition (and that AS is different from Autism), only with a different severity, and that SPD and "broader autism phenotype" are probably the same thing. She propposed a thing called "Schizoid/Asperger Disorder", with a diagnostic criteria similar to the AS, with some modifications:

* remove the requirment of "no language delay"
* change the reference to "stereotyped and restricted interests" to a wording reflecting better the "richness" and complexity of the interests of many people with this condition (according to her, only the interests of schizoids/aspergers with low-average intelligence could be called "restricted")
*includind the symptom "intense fantasy life"

She made some "back-of-the-envelop" calculations estimating the prevalence of "Schizoid/Asperger Disorder" in 2% of the population, considering that the 0,2%-0,3% usually estimated for AS refers only to the most severly affected individuals.

About the autism and schizophrenia spectrum, she was of the opinon that "S/AD" was in both spectrums - that probably some genes involved in S/AD are also involved in schizophrenia and others are involved in autism.

This article that I posted some posts ago is very similar to what she write in that book

http://books.google.pt/books?id=ovvD0Zu ... &q&f=false

EDIT: after clicking in the link, I noticed that most of the pages are off-line now.

Last edited by TPE2 on 20 Apr 2010, 8:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

Thank you for the feedback, TPE2

This is very interesting indeed.

Technically Lovecraft was not a successful author. It's only due to the efforts of August Derleth that he enjoys a cult following today.

As I understand it, I think there is a fundamental difference between the schizophrenia spectrum and the autism spectrum, and it is that with the schizophrenia spectrum there is a break with reality (which can be mild or severe).

The schizophrenic brain perceives reality in a way that is at odds with what is actually real. The autistic brain may not be equipped to understand all the subtleties of NT behavior, but it is not out of touch with reality. People with ASD are if anything more in touch with the nuts and bolts of what is real, as distinguished from mere perception.

I see Schizoid PD and ASD as being different in a cart/horse kind of way. The external manifestations may be similar, but the horses pulling the carts are different.

As an analogy consider 2 people who do not walk. One is a parapalegic with an underlying physical impairment. The other chooses not to walk and has no interest in walking. Just because neither walks, it doesn't mean they have related conditions.

With spectrum disorders, the focus is on an "impairment of social interaction" which is the result of an underlying neurological disorder that impairs the individual from engaging in expected social behavior. One common impairment has been described as a lack of Theory of Mind, and the effects are exacerbated by other people's lack of patience and understanding of the ASD individual. In other words, the horse (ASD neurology) pulls the social interaction cart.

With Schizoid PD, the diagnostic criteria rules out other causes (e.g., spectrum disorders) and focuses not on an impairment, but a pattern of detachment. The focus is on internal reasons for the externally manifested social detachment -- e.g., the patient's "desires," choices, interests, pleasures, etc.--that don't come into play in an Asperger's diagnosis.