Whoops, wrong diagnosis. Autism vs Schizotypal
heliocopters
Pileated woodpecker
Joined: 20 Aug 2009
Age: 36
Gender: Female
Posts: 189
Location: American side of Lake Ontario
07 May 2010, 5:21 pm
Okay, so there seems to be some questions...or...I'm not sure, so I decided to post the email conversation I had with my brother. He is in bold, I am in italics. There's a lot of stuff I can't really answer right now, but maybe this will clear up some confusion.
Quote:
Diagnostic criteria (ICD-10) - schizotypal disorder
It is characterized as:
A disorder characterized by eccentric behaviour and anomalies of thinking and affect which resemble those seen in schizophrenia, though no definite and characteristic schizophrenic anomalies have occurred at any stage. There is no dominant or typical disturbance, but any of the following may be present:
1. inappropriate or constricted affect (the individual appears cold and aloof);
Sometimes you come off as a “b***h” without meaning to and in contexts that wouldn’t evoke such a response normally, like in asking you what you want for dinner or what you want to watch on TV.
(This is true)
2. behaviour or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar;
Goes without saying. Like the ways you like to dress and other aesthetic choices.
(Also true)
3. poor rapport with others and a tendency to social withdrawal;
Yes. You do exhibit social withdrawal, but without marked social awkwardness (which is Asperger’s) or any other kind of obvious “social retardation.”You behave fine at parties, mingling and meandering through the crowd like anybody else.
(Although I feel I am more social adept than you are, I am still uncomfortable with people and parties, doing much better when alcohol is involved, which is characteristic of Asperger’s. We also have to keep this in mind: the diagnostic criteria of Asperger’s is almost entirely male-biased, and they have proved it effects females differently, such as being able to learn social rules and how to behave much more easily and quickly than our male counterparts. However, due to social withdrawal, many Schizotypes lose a great deal of social intelligence.)
I agree that it’s male-biased. There is, however, some anecdotal evidence that homosexual AS males have many of the same “overcompensate-for-your-disorder” skills as female aspies. My slightly-better-than-average social skills are like those of an AS female, whereas yours strike me as more mainstream. If I were straight, I’d likely be much more socially ret*d.
4. odd beliefs or magical thinking, influencing behaviour and inconsistent with subcultural norms;
You have certain tenacious and less than ideally logical beliefs, such as believing that knocking on wood is somehow causally efficient in the direction of producing good effects. That’s just one in a menagerie of strange and magical beliefs. People on the autism spectrum don’t do that, they’re almost condemned to be methodological naturalists and materialist. Even at my most fanciful, like believing in aliens and bigfoot, they’re still “scientific”—that is, statistically there should be life on other planets and if bigfoots existed, they’d ultimately just be another species of bipedal primate. Nothing magical there. Inconsistent with subcultural norms: you have magical thinking but in a way that’s completely divorced from Jesus, etc.
(You don’t need to be a jerk about this. I don’t really believe that knocking on wood really does anything…or maybe I do, I don’t know (yes you do). I do it because it’s a comfort thing, mostly. I do, however, believe in ESP, not so much on a magical scale but because I’ve read a few very interesting books and articles on ESP written by psychologists and scientists, and it seems very plausible. I feel that my belief in this is at least 50% scientifically based.)
5. suspiciousness or paranoid ideas;
You think the government or dad is eavesdropping on your phone calls, etc.
(Oh, I am super effin' paranoid. At this point I’m not even sure if its directed at anything—I’m just one paranoid mofo.)
6. obsessive ruminations without inner resistance, often with dysmorphophobic, sexual or aggressive contents;
You’ve expressed some strange ideas to me about how ugly and “off” the human form seems to you.
(Ugly and “off” in comparison to other mammals. Look at us. We are weird looking. We only really have two places on our bodies with a substantial amount of hair. I ask: WTF? This dose not mean that I am “turned off” by the human form, since I am human and likely going to find other humans sexually attractive over other species, but simply that I think we’re about on the same level as the platypus in bodily weirdness.)
You’ve proven my point. Lots of mammals have strange hair patterns. Your conviction isn’t completely rational.
7. unusual perceptual experiences including somatosensory (bodily) or other illusions, depersonalization or derealization;
We’ve already known about your depersonalization and derealization disorders.
(Yes, DP and DR. I also have Dissacociative trance disorder (panic-induced) with “pseudo-hallucinations,” basically disturbing illusions that don’t yet amount to true hallucinations. They are frightening, still.)
8. vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped thinking, manifested by odd speech or in other ways, without gross incoherence;
I think so.
(Me too.)
9. occasional transient quasi-psychotic episodes with intense illusions, auditory or other hallucinations, and delusion-like ideas, usually occurring without external provocation.
I don’t think so.
(I have exactly this, without having true hallucinations. “Transient quasi-psychotic episodes with intense illusions” is basically a dissacociative trance. When I have panic attacks, this is exactly what happens—especially with the “delusion-like ideas.” I’m not so much afraid that “people are out to get me” but rather that I have absolutely no one at all who cares enough to “come get me.”)
Okay. I believe you.
Furthermore, you don’t really have the three defining characteristics of AS. You don’t exhibit circumscribed interests, at least not in any way that wouldn’t also be characteristic of every thoughtful person. You don’t exhibit perseveration. You don’t go on and on about a favored topic, oblivious to the boredom and immiseration of your interlocutor. You’re also not a “literal thinker,” you’re more of a magical thinker. People with AS live in a completely magic-less universe and not by choice. It’s a completely explicable, mechanical universe devoid of numinous objects and experiences. It’s just a big machine and so is everything and everyone in it. People who think “there’s more” are just delusional. In general you don’t come off as pedantic or excessively intellectual. And schitzotypal disorder is more consistent with your being an artist. If you had AS you be more likely to be a scientist, an engineer, or a very materialistic and naturalistic philosopher.
It is possible to have co-morbid AS and Schizotypal, however, since the criteria are so similar, most professionals will not give one person these two diagnoses. Many aspies and autists are artistic—in fact it is often associated with savant skills. I am ahead of most of my peers when it comes to being “technically advanced” in drawing and painting. I do agree, though, that it is more consistent with Schizotypal than Asperger’s. I do have narrow interests, which is also part of schizotypal disorder (I am not entirely sure why they did not have it on this specific list), but you are right about me not talking to people to death about it. I research a lot of things—mostly psychology these days, but I often do not talk about it to other people, except to you.
Generally I think you couldn’t have comorbidity. The two diagnostically preclude each other. Further, Temple Grandin tacitly suggests in “Thinking in Pictures” that where severe nonverbal autism is the extreme end of the autism spectrum, we should expect that since there is a broader autistic-neurotypical spectrum, there should be an extreme at the other end of the spectrum, and she suggests that this is schizophrenia.
Kanner’s autism—HFA—Asperger’s autism—hypo-neurotypical—neurotypical—hyper-neurotypical—schizophrenia (or something like this).
I think she’s right. Schizophrenia-like disorders seems to be a pathological exaggeration of the normal human phenotype, whereas autism-like disorder are characterized by a proportional absence. The two can’t be comorbid because they’re at complete opposite ends of one big spectrum. Where a certain amount of “magical thinking” helps NT’s intuit each other’s feelings, talk spontaneously in non-literal language, have religious and spiritual experiences, and experience that the universe they inhabit is more than particles in a vacuum (all things with are withheld from aspies and other autists) an excess causes a disorder, which is schizophrenia. Schizophrenics inhabit a very magical, colorful, and fanciful world, whereas ASD types inhabit a world that is barren, black-and-white, and straightforward. This is why most aspies say that their favorite Star Trek characters are Spock and Data. Temple says this too. I’m not of that generation, but I in the Matrix trilogy, I “get” the Machines better than I “get” the humans. In the movie “9” I don’t “get” the Stitchpunks, but I do really really really like “The Machine.”
I wasn’t insulting you. See that’s a difference. I was just stating what I perceived to be the facts, judgment free. The idea that certain sentences contain certain judgments is part of non-literal communication. You “see” something in those sentences that isn’t really there (magical thinking).”She has a lot of boyfriends” if said or heard by an aspie means just that, no judgment. Non-aspies hear or mean to say “she’s a slut.” I said those things without tacit judgments. All of my judgments are explicit (e.g. wow, he’s a moron), unless I’ve decided in advance to tacitly judge someone, but it’s very precalculated and non-spontaneous. People think I’m judging them. I’m not. I don’t assume that there isn’t any value to magical thinking, I’m just stating my conclusions as they follow from their premises. You’re not overly intellectual. You’re intellectual the way most competent students in their field are (the incompetent ones, well that’s another story). When I say excessively or overly intellectual I mean someone who’s exhibiting the adult form of the “little professor” phenomenon. You never did the “little professor” thing. For example, this past winter break I asked you about the art in the book I was reading, “The Last Empire,” about the end of imperial China. You gave me very good and erudite answers to my questions. Were you inclined to be a “little professor” you’d have noticed the portrait of Emperor Yongzheng on the cover and started talking about it, nonstop, without having been asked for a lesson. This you did not do, nor have you ever been inclined to do things like that. You were presented with an opportunity to perseverate and didn’t. Aspies never miss an opportunity to perseverate. Ever. Expect perhaps after A LOT of hard work and self-discipline.
It is characterized as:
A disorder characterized by eccentric behaviour and anomalies of thinking and affect which resemble those seen in schizophrenia, though no definite and characteristic schizophrenic anomalies have occurred at any stage. There is no dominant or typical disturbance, but any of the following may be present:
1. inappropriate or constricted affect (the individual appears cold and aloof);
Sometimes you come off as a “b***h” without meaning to and in contexts that wouldn’t evoke such a response normally, like in asking you what you want for dinner or what you want to watch on TV.
(This is true)
2. behaviour or appearance that is odd, eccentric, or peculiar;
Goes without saying. Like the ways you like to dress and other aesthetic choices.
(Also true)
3. poor rapport with others and a tendency to social withdrawal;
Yes. You do exhibit social withdrawal, but without marked social awkwardness (which is Asperger’s) or any other kind of obvious “social retardation.”You behave fine at parties, mingling and meandering through the crowd like anybody else.
(Although I feel I am more social adept than you are, I am still uncomfortable with people and parties, doing much better when alcohol is involved, which is characteristic of Asperger’s. We also have to keep this in mind: the diagnostic criteria of Asperger’s is almost entirely male-biased, and they have proved it effects females differently, such as being able to learn social rules and how to behave much more easily and quickly than our male counterparts. However, due to social withdrawal, many Schizotypes lose a great deal of social intelligence.)
I agree that it’s male-biased. There is, however, some anecdotal evidence that homosexual AS males have many of the same “overcompensate-for-your-disorder” skills as female aspies. My slightly-better-than-average social skills are like those of an AS female, whereas yours strike me as more mainstream. If I were straight, I’d likely be much more socially ret*d.
4. odd beliefs or magical thinking, influencing behaviour and inconsistent with subcultural norms;
You have certain tenacious and less than ideally logical beliefs, such as believing that knocking on wood is somehow causally efficient in the direction of producing good effects. That’s just one in a menagerie of strange and magical beliefs. People on the autism spectrum don’t do that, they’re almost condemned to be methodological naturalists and materialist. Even at my most fanciful, like believing in aliens and bigfoot, they’re still “scientific”—that is, statistically there should be life on other planets and if bigfoots existed, they’d ultimately just be another species of bipedal primate. Nothing magical there. Inconsistent with subcultural norms: you have magical thinking but in a way that’s completely divorced from Jesus, etc.
(You don’t need to be a jerk about this. I don’t really believe that knocking on wood really does anything…or maybe I do, I don’t know (yes you do). I do it because it’s a comfort thing, mostly. I do, however, believe in ESP, not so much on a magical scale but because I’ve read a few very interesting books and articles on ESP written by psychologists and scientists, and it seems very plausible. I feel that my belief in this is at least 50% scientifically based.)
5. suspiciousness or paranoid ideas;
You think the government or dad is eavesdropping on your phone calls, etc.
(Oh, I am super effin' paranoid. At this point I’m not even sure if its directed at anything—I’m just one paranoid mofo.)
6. obsessive ruminations without inner resistance, often with dysmorphophobic, sexual or aggressive contents;
You’ve expressed some strange ideas to me about how ugly and “off” the human form seems to you.
(Ugly and “off” in comparison to other mammals. Look at us. We are weird looking. We only really have two places on our bodies with a substantial amount of hair. I ask: WTF? This dose not mean that I am “turned off” by the human form, since I am human and likely going to find other humans sexually attractive over other species, but simply that I think we’re about on the same level as the platypus in bodily weirdness.)
You’ve proven my point. Lots of mammals have strange hair patterns. Your conviction isn’t completely rational.
7. unusual perceptual experiences including somatosensory (bodily) or other illusions, depersonalization or derealization;
We’ve already known about your depersonalization and derealization disorders.
(Yes, DP and DR. I also have Dissacociative trance disorder (panic-induced) with “pseudo-hallucinations,” basically disturbing illusions that don’t yet amount to true hallucinations. They are frightening, still.)
8. vague, circumstantial, metaphorical, overelaborate, or stereotyped thinking, manifested by odd speech or in other ways, without gross incoherence;
I think so.
(Me too.)
9. occasional transient quasi-psychotic episodes with intense illusions, auditory or other hallucinations, and delusion-like ideas, usually occurring without external provocation.
I don’t think so.
(I have exactly this, without having true hallucinations. “Transient quasi-psychotic episodes with intense illusions” is basically a dissacociative trance. When I have panic attacks, this is exactly what happens—especially with the “delusion-like ideas.” I’m not so much afraid that “people are out to get me” but rather that I have absolutely no one at all who cares enough to “come get me.”)
Okay. I believe you.
Furthermore, you don’t really have the three defining characteristics of AS. You don’t exhibit circumscribed interests, at least not in any way that wouldn’t also be characteristic of every thoughtful person. You don’t exhibit perseveration. You don’t go on and on about a favored topic, oblivious to the boredom and immiseration of your interlocutor. You’re also not a “literal thinker,” you’re more of a magical thinker. People with AS live in a completely magic-less universe and not by choice. It’s a completely explicable, mechanical universe devoid of numinous objects and experiences. It’s just a big machine and so is everything and everyone in it. People who think “there’s more” are just delusional. In general you don’t come off as pedantic or excessively intellectual. And schitzotypal disorder is more consistent with your being an artist. If you had AS you be more likely to be a scientist, an engineer, or a very materialistic and naturalistic philosopher.
It is possible to have co-morbid AS and Schizotypal, however, since the criteria are so similar, most professionals will not give one person these two diagnoses. Many aspies and autists are artistic—in fact it is often associated with savant skills. I am ahead of most of my peers when it comes to being “technically advanced” in drawing and painting. I do agree, though, that it is more consistent with Schizotypal than Asperger’s. I do have narrow interests, which is also part of schizotypal disorder (I am not entirely sure why they did not have it on this specific list), but you are right about me not talking to people to death about it. I research a lot of things—mostly psychology these days, but I often do not talk about it to other people, except to you.
Generally I think you couldn’t have comorbidity. The two diagnostically preclude each other. Further, Temple Grandin tacitly suggests in “Thinking in Pictures” that where severe nonverbal autism is the extreme end of the autism spectrum, we should expect that since there is a broader autistic-neurotypical spectrum, there should be an extreme at the other end of the spectrum, and she suggests that this is schizophrenia.
Kanner’s autism—HFA—Asperger’s autism—hypo-neurotypical—neurotypical—hyper-neurotypical—schizophrenia (or something like this).
I think she’s right. Schizophrenia-like disorders seems to be a pathological exaggeration of the normal human phenotype, whereas autism-like disorder are characterized by a proportional absence. The two can’t be comorbid because they’re at complete opposite ends of one big spectrum. Where a certain amount of “magical thinking” helps NT’s intuit each other’s feelings, talk spontaneously in non-literal language, have religious and spiritual experiences, and experience that the universe they inhabit is more than particles in a vacuum (all things with are withheld from aspies and other autists) an excess causes a disorder, which is schizophrenia. Schizophrenics inhabit a very magical, colorful, and fanciful world, whereas ASD types inhabit a world that is barren, black-and-white, and straightforward. This is why most aspies say that their favorite Star Trek characters are Spock and Data. Temple says this too. I’m not of that generation, but I in the Matrix trilogy, I “get” the Machines better than I “get” the humans. In the movie “9” I don’t “get” the Stitchpunks, but I do really really really like “The Machine.”
I wasn’t insulting you. See that’s a difference. I was just stating what I perceived to be the facts, judgment free. The idea that certain sentences contain certain judgments is part of non-literal communication. You “see” something in those sentences that isn’t really there (magical thinking).”She has a lot of boyfriends” if said or heard by an aspie means just that, no judgment. Non-aspies hear or mean to say “she’s a slut.” I said those things without tacit judgments. All of my judgments are explicit (e.g. wow, he’s a moron), unless I’ve decided in advance to tacitly judge someone, but it’s very precalculated and non-spontaneous. People think I’m judging them. I’m not. I don’t assume that there isn’t any value to magical thinking, I’m just stating my conclusions as they follow from their premises. You’re not overly intellectual. You’re intellectual the way most competent students in their field are (the incompetent ones, well that’s another story). When I say excessively or overly intellectual I mean someone who’s exhibiting the adult form of the “little professor” phenomenon. You never did the “little professor” thing. For example, this past winter break I asked you about the art in the book I was reading, “The Last Empire,” about the end of imperial China. You gave me very good and erudite answers to my questions. Were you inclined to be a “little professor” you’d have noticed the portrait of Emperor Yongzheng on the cover and started talking about it, nonstop, without having been asked for a lesson. This you did not do, nor have you ever been inclined to do things like that. You were presented with an opportunity to perseverate and didn’t. Aspies never miss an opportunity to perseverate. Ever. Expect perhaps after A LOT of hard work and self-discipline.
_________________
I am the wise little owl in the linden trees near the water.
07 May 2010, 8:00 pm
SabbraCadabra wrote:
This is all about as vague as vague can get..."negative features"?? Come on!
The diagnostic criteria of schizophrenia are divided into the "negative" (an absence of something normal, for example blunted affect) and "positive" features ("extra" abnormal symptoms, like hallucinations and delusions). Just read a bit about schizophrenia and it will make more sense. Whoever wrote that description about schizotypal disorder probably did so for professionals, who would be expected to understand what was meant by "negative" features.
_________________
Not all those who wander are lost... but I generally am.
07 May 2010, 9:15 pm
according to the dsm aspergers, schizotypal, and adhd rule each other out. Psychologists often disregard the dsm rules though and will diagnose them together sometimes. They've done this with me several times. Also according to the dsm schizophrenia is only sussposed to be diagnosed along with a PDD when delusions or hallucinations are present. Also heres the defination of schizotypy that will probablly be in the new dsm5
Unusual perceptions Having odd experiences in various sensory modalities; experiencing synesthesia (cross-modal perception); perceiving events and things in odd ways that others do not
Unusual beliefs Content of thoughts that is viewed by others of the same culture and society as bizarre; idiosyncratic but deeply held convictions that are not well justified by objective evidence; interest in the occult and in unusual views of reality
Eccentricity Unusual behavior (e.g., unusual mannerisms; wearing clothes obviously inappropriate to the occasion or season); saying unusual or inappropriate things; frequent use of neologisms; concrete and impoverished speech; seen by others of the same culture and society as bizarre, odd, and strange
Cognitive dysregulation Unusual thought processes; having thoughts and ideas that do not follow logically from each other; derailment of one’s train of thought; making loose associations or non-sequiturs; disorganized and/or confused thought, especially when stressed
Dissociation proneness Tendency to experience disruptions in the flow of conscious experience; “losing time,” (e.g., being unaware of how one got to one’s location); experiencing one’s surroundings as strange or unreal
I seem to have something else besides aspergers and adhd. Nothing really quite fits though. Its something that seems to fluxuate but nothing like bipolar. More like I get high randomly without drugs. Sometimes it lasts, sometimes it doesn't. I also have constant dissociation and visual distortions. Some of my symptoms seem like temperal lobe epilepsy but any type of epilepsy was ruled out. Other people tell me I appear intoxicated when I am sober and I have been harrassed by the police several times and taken many unnecessary breathalizers. This could also be because I have a sleep disorder that makes me extremely drowsy when I am not on the right meds or drinking caffine.
| Similar Topics | |
|---|---|
| Feel like I'm doing something wrong |
08 Jan 2025, 2:47 pm |
| New to Diagnosis and to WP |
17 Nov 2024, 6:29 pm |
| Hello from Michigan! New to Wrong Planet Forums |
02 Jan 2025, 12:07 pm |
| What am I doing wrong to explain less luck with dating? |
17 Dec 2024, 7:09 pm |
