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The Trials of being a Woman with AS

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ToughDiamond
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15 Sep 2010, 11:11 am

hale_bopp wrote:
I think women and men have their fair shares of problems each. I think its a good idea to accept that and not undermine the problems of the other sex.

Being a woman with AS is easier in some ways than men with AS, and more difficult in others. Would be good if all parties recognised this.


Agree 100% 8)

Reading through the list of points the OP made, I'm thankful I turned my back on mainstream society.......in the 60s we thought it was about to get better, but if anything it's got worse. But women do NOT have to do any of those things on that list. The mainstream majority can get stuffed. There are millions of people who don't have such expectations - indeed I don't accept girlie partners (I'm suspicious of any woman who has such an unhealthy interest in her public sexual image), and I'd have trouble even being platonic friends with one (the sexual dimension is just too much of a distraction). Even in my workplace (a research building in a university), brains are prized over "beauty." The women here don't wear makeup or fetish shoes, that's practically universal.

Point no. 11 - there's no help for men either, in my experience. Not for free anyway. :( Basically we're all in the same leaky boat together.



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15 Sep 2010, 11:26 am

I don't think women should wear bras and I am not overly fond of women wearing make up. It don't do much for me at all. Bra-less au naturale women!
I need lay down for a bit. Night all.



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15 Sep 2010, 11:30 am

Another_Alien wrote:
Meow101 wrote:
Another_Alien wrote:
Men and women mutually decide what we find attractive in the opposite sex. Rightly or wrongly, men do enjoy it when women dress up, but women would hate it if men invested the same effort in their appearance (in fact, women complain if men are 'too metrosexual' or 'he uses more products than me').

I believe this is biological. In primitive society men were attracted to the most fertile women, and fertility is symbolized by youth and beauty, whilst women were attracted to the 'best hunters'. These primitive instincts remain in our DNA, so we continue to revere female beauty and male athleticism (the modern of equivalent of hunting), whilst we dismiss 'pretty boys' and 'athletic tomboys'. It may be unfair, but feminine men and masculine women will always be marginalized in mainstream culture.

So it's not society to blame, but biology.


And our overdeveloped frontal lobes can't say, this is ridiculous, let's move beyond this crap and think with the *correct* head for once?

~Kate


Well, would you date a feminine man who wore make-up? If the answer's 'yes', fair enough, but that's pretty unusual. If it's 'no' - as I suspect it is - then you're just as trapped by your primitive instincts as any man!


The answer is "It depends on what the man was like inside". I fall in love with the person, not the exterior.

~Kate


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Meow101
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15 Sep 2010, 11:42 am

mechanicalgirl39 wrote:

THANK YOOOOOOU! I'm so tired of hearing people casually blame social problems on biology and then brush them off as if they were incurable and we should just accept it and shut up.

It's not ok to treat men as hunters and women as walking wombs. We can change our mental perspective if we want to. All it takes is using your damn neocortex. It's not that hard. I don't expect men to be 'hunter' types. I don't expect them to provide for me or do the heavy lifting for me. I think it's every bit as sexist as criticizing a woman for wearing comfortable clothes instead of highly sexualizing ones.


That was my point...it may very well be biological at the origin, but that doesn't mean we have to accept it and shut up. We *do* have something that other mammals don't...a neocortex that is more highly developed, so why not use it in the service of equality? Some of the sexiest men I've known have actually said the sexiest thing a woman can wear is nothing :) so why not ditch the idea of uncomfortable clothes being sexy? Why not divorce the idea of sexiness from female discomfort, confinement, and sometimes frank disability? Is a healthy, strong, self-assured woman THAT threatening a concept that men can't handle it???? If so, I think they need to take a good hard look at themselves and why that is.

~Kate


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15 Sep 2010, 11:54 am

Another_Alien wrote:
What you personally find attractive in men isn't the issue here, it's what most women find attractive in men.


And how many women exactly have you personally met and talked to that you would know what "most women" find attractive in men, dear good sir?



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15 Sep 2010, 12:05 pm

The hardest thing for me as a woman with AS is being a mother and the expectations of society that go with that. Especially in the early years. The absolute worst was the complete nightmare situation known as the 'mother and toddler group'. You have to do this for the benefit of your child, so they can develop socially blah, blah blah. OMG it's worse than school. A room full of cliquey women who all think the sun shines out of their child's backside. And the non-delibrate undermining of everything you do. They'd chatter away about how little Johnny was having non-dairy, organic yak's milk quiche for lunch and was then going to play with his Montessori approved development set to build his self asteem and develop his cognitive function. I'd be thinking, mine is having pizza and watching Tellytubbies. It was my weekly 3 hour ordeal. Standing around, not knowing what to do, what to say, where to go, and just like school being completely ignored by everyone.



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15 Sep 2010, 12:08 pm

A lot of these things apply to me. It is hard. I'm looked at as rude constantly. :-( For example: What are you doing? Me: Reading my book (textbook BTW). Mom sees my tone as rude. Well IMO can't you see I'm reading my textbook. Why the hell do you have to ask?! NT's are so confusing to me. Also having no friends/social life/never had a boyfriend can be a depressing thing. I try to cope with special interest a video game or college work. (This semester I'm doing online courses but hope to do on campus next semester. Sadly yes I was diagnosed with a mood disorder based off a yellow sheet I me/mom filled out and the term Asperger's only came up with my current Psychiatrist because I mention it. Also mentioning the family issues (I mention time and again here on WP) she said up the dose of the pills I'm currently on. I don't want to be a zombie so I chose NOT to. I wish there was more help for people in general with AS and woman aswell. It's hard being AS in an NT world. :-(



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15 Sep 2010, 12:08 pm

Meow101 wrote:
mechanicalgirl39 wrote:

THANK YOOOOOOU! I'm so tired of hearing people casually blame social problems on biology and then brush them off as if they were incurable and we should just accept it and shut up.

It's not ok to treat men as hunters and women as walking wombs. We can change our mental perspective if we want to. All it takes is using your damn neocortex. It's not that hard. I don't expect men to be 'hunter' types. I don't expect them to provide for me or do the heavy lifting for me. I think it's every bit as sexist as criticizing a woman for wearing comfortable clothes instead of highly sexualizing ones.


That was my point...it may very well be biological at the origin, but that doesn't mean we have to accept it and shut up. We *do* have something that other mammals don't...a neocortex that is more highly developed, so why not use it in the service of equality? Some of the sexiest men I've known have actually said the sexiest thing a woman can wear is nothing :) so why not ditch the idea of uncomfortable clothes being sexy? Why not divorce the idea of sexiness from female discomfort, confinement, and sometimes frank disability? Is a healthy, strong, self-assured woman THAT threatening a concept that men can't handle it???? If so, I think they need to take a good hard look at themselves and why that is.

~Kate


It's nothing to do with what's 'threatening', it's what turns men on. A man might find shaving every day and going to the gym 3 times a week 'uncomfortable', but still do it because it makes him more attractive.

If you genuinely don't mind a man wearing make-up, etc., then I guess you're in a stronger position to argue for more flexibility in what the sexes wear. Again, this puts you in a VERY small minority of women though.



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15 Sep 2010, 12:09 pm

I forgot, there was something worse..... bumping into one of those mothers as you came out of McDonald's, noticed her shopping bag from the health shop next door and then had to endure an awkward, forced conversation as you try to hide the happy meal behind your back.



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15 Sep 2010, 12:11 pm

menintights wrote:
Another_Alien wrote:
What you personally find attractive in men isn't the issue here, it's what most women find attractive in men.


And how many women exactly have you personally met and talked to that you would know what "most women" find attractive in men, dear good sir?


Oh pl-ease. You're not seriously disputing that most women (I didn't say all) want a man that's more masculine than them.



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15 Sep 2010, 12:13 pm

nice post:)



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15 Sep 2010, 12:15 pm

Another_Alien wrote:
If you genuinely don't mind a man wearing make-up, etc., then I guess you're in a stronger position to argue for more flexibility in what the sexes wear. Again, this puts you in a VERY small minority of women though.


I wouldn't mind if my husband wanted to wear make-up. It's up to him. My daughter's boyfriend does sometimes wear makeup and is forever pinching one of her hello kitty t-shirts to wear.



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15 Sep 2010, 12:22 pm

Another_Alien wrote:
Oh pl-ease. You're not seriously disputing that most women (I didn't say all) want a man that's more masculine than them.


Maybe that is how it used to be, but I think more of the younger generation (say teens to 30s) are accepting of it now. Older women most likely are not. And it's getting more and more acceptable every day.


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15 Sep 2010, 12:30 pm

Eddy Izzard wears makeup and women's clothes and he's gorgeous. Love him, love him, love him (but don't tell my husband). :lol:



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15 Sep 2010, 12:42 pm

nekowafer wrote:
Another_Alien wrote:
Oh pl-ease. You're not seriously disputing that most women (I didn't say all) want a man that's more masculine than them.


Maybe that is how it used to be, but I think more of the younger generation (say teens to 30s) are accepting of it now. Older women most likely are not. And it's getting more and more acceptable every day.


Well, it depends how you define 'masculine'. I agree that younger women aren't swooning over knights in shining armour to the same degree as their grandmothers, and are more likely to date men who earn less and are less ambitious than men were in the past, as gender roles in the workplace change. I don't agree that significant numbers of young women would date men that acted/dressed in a traditionally feminine manner (despite what's been said on this thread). The vast majority of young women still essentially want to be 'the feminine one' in their relationships. Likewise men are now much more accepting of successful, ambitious women, but the vast majority of men still want to feel manly in comparison to their partners.

The qualities we seek in the opposite sex have been hard-wired into our brains by thousands of years of evolution. Yes, times are changing, and, yes, we are partly guided by our intellect. But 50 years of feminism hasn't wiped away 10,000 years of primitive instinct.



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15 Sep 2010, 12:50 pm

Another_Alien wrote:
mechanicalgirl39 wrote:
Meow101 wrote:
Another_Alien wrote:
Men and women mutually decide what we find attractive in the opposite sex. Rightly or wrongly, men do enjoy it when women dress up, but women would hate it if men invested the same effort in their appearance (in fact, women complain if men are 'too metrosexual' or 'he uses more products than me').

I believe this is biological. In primitive society men were attracted to the most fertile women, and fertility is symbolized by youth and beauty, whilst women were attracted to the 'best hunters'. These primitive instincts remain in our DNA, so we continue to revere female beauty and male athleticism (the modern of equivalent of hunting), whilst we dismiss 'pretty boys' and 'athletic tomboys'. It may be unfair, but feminine men and masculine women will always be marginalized in mainstream culture.

So it's not society to blame, but biology.


And our overdeveloped frontal lobes can't say, this is ridiculous, let's move beyond this crap and think with the *correct* head for once?

~Kate


THANK YOOOOOOU! I'm so tired of hearing people casually blame social problems on biology and then brush them off as if they were incurable and we should just accept it and shut up.

It's not ok to treat men as hunters and women as walking wombs. We can change our mental perspective if we want to. All it takes is using your damn neocortex. It's not that hard. I don't expect men to be 'hunter' types. I don't expect them to provide for me or do the heavy lifting for me. I think it's every bit as sexist as criticizing a woman for wearing comfortable clothes instead of highly sexualizing ones.


That's wildly exaggerating what I said.

What you personally find attractive in men isn't the issue here, it's what most women find attractive in men. Most women want men who are discernably more masculine than them. Is this nature or nurture? Well, let's just say that highly intelligent, highly educated, very successful women are just as likely to want a masculine man. Have these women - despite all their great talents - simply been brainwashed to want certain qualities in a man? And do you honestly believe human beings are the ONLY species of animal that doesn't mate by primitive instinct, at least to some degree, especially as we evolved from some of these animals? If we could dismiss all our primitive instincts just by using our 'damn neocortex' no-one would ever have a panic attack!

As for women wearing comfortable clothes: why shouldn't BOTH sexes look nice for each other? If women have a 'right' to demand that men act/dress masculine, then why shouldn't men have the 'right' to demand that women act/dress feminine? Suggesting that women should be able to to 'dress down' on dates is a double standard if you don't give men 'permission' to 'dress up'. If you're willing to accept a boyfriend/husband who wears dresses and make-up, fair enough, but if you're one of the 99.99% of women who wouldn't accept this, because it's too feminine, then you can hardly complain if he considers your dress sense too masculine!

I don't personally want to wear women's clothes I hasten to add. Just illustrating a point. lol


Is wanting a man who doesn't use too many hair products really ingrained in the brain? I severely doubt it. Those things are socially defined. There are cultures where it is the men who wear lots of ornaments and body paint, while the women dress plainly and keep their hair short.

I don't think either sex should make demands of the other in terms of going against their nature. If a guy wants to wear makeup to meet me, that's fine. And conversely, no, he doesn't have the right to demand that I wear a dress and heels.


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