Theory of Mind?

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I sometimes forget that people don´t have certain bits of information that I have. I might be talking about something, when the listener mentions they are confused, at which point I have to go back and explain what my "background information" is. Or, I expect someone to do something, only to realize that I haven´t quite explained exactly what it is I want from them. Stuff like that. I don´t know how common this is though, maybe everyone has these problems.

Some people tell me I have an extreme lack of empathy, others say I don't, which is why I am a bit confused about the whole empathy idea.

I am the same way...People get frustrated that I jump subjects and they do not see the connection and I have to go explain it how I got there. I hear a lot "well I can't read your mind". I just don't see things the same as most people. I find I need specifics to understand a question right or if I ask a question I always have to go into specifics to find the answer I was looking for.

As for the Theory of Mind I just read this in a psychology book not too long ago and it is the understanding of basic mental states. (I think it boils down to understanding of other peoples thoughts, feelings, perceptions, beliefs, desires etc). It is important because it is believed in psychology that a major part of how one person acts towards another is based off of what the person believes another other person is thinking.

In my sensorium, theory of mind is a state that comes to pass when a two-year-old (approximately) succeeds in making the perception-expression leap and decides that other people exist. That's a bit of a rough explanation, but I'm filling in gaps a long way in retrospect. Everything else in socialisation builds on that.

Aspies, needless to say, don't make it to square one.

This is a very important point. Any test that measures the ability to understand facial experiments should also measure the time taken for successful recognition. The fact that you have to study a single freeze-frame for more than a handful of seconds in order to gauge the correct emotion is very telling.

Hmmm... I have met several NTs who don't understand that either. That's strange. Obviously they don't always use their Theory of Mind.
I mean, they may tell me thet they don't understand why I don't get stressed in a certain situation, because they themselves would. Or how I can eat this or that because they themselves don't like it.
As for me, I understand that people are different and have different taste, and hence don't wonder or ask the same question when they are eating things I don't like. Though it should be opposite.
Maybe because I use my logic and they think they need to be able to "feel" the same way in order to "understand". That looks more "impairment"like to me.

Not that other people exist, but that other people are aware that they exist. A rock exists to an autistic. A Theory of Mind creates a different class of existence separate from things as concrete as rocks. No? This seems consistent with my perceptions up until my late teens. People were objects that did things, but there was no clear concept of self either within my own consciousness or any attribution of that self awareness to others.

wavefreak: i totally relate to that. as a teen i often wondered if people actually existed or if they were a creation of my mind, along with the world and my whole life. thankfully im better now lol, if this comes back i just dismiss it

The problem I have is that the theory of my mind seems to be different from the theory of other people´s minds! I have learned, by studying a bit of psychology- as well as through experience- generally what "other people" tend to think, and then acting accordingly. But in most cases, this is an intellectual process.

My theory about "theory of mind" is that Aspies can have a better understanding of each other, because the mindset is similar. Seems to work in my life, anyway.

Good point.

There's also NTs who lack the theory of others knowledge, who don't give enough information to the autist and get angry when they don't know what to do. For example, my mother tells me to go to the store and buy bread. I do so, and when I come home she's angry at me for buying the wrong kind of bread.

It seems to me they're only testing theory of NT mind, which is a weird mesh of "people are different from you" and "people are exactly like you"*. We're not exactly like them, so there's difficulty relating both ways. We might start out having difficulty knowing people are different, but once that gets broken, autists seem to be a lot more accepting of differences than NTs.

*Not that autistic ToM is necessarily more consistent.

A little while back, I couldn't understand why the other members here weren't celebrating the fact that I've gone from being what I thought was a green haired punk, back to being the real me. It turns out that most of the WP community don't know about Mods and Rockers and The Kinks and most of the people who joined, had just joined this year. That's how bad my Theory of Mind is.

Now I just celebrate by dressing up some days, and listening to The Kinks on the evenings that I don't go out, which is every two nights.

I haven't said anything because I just joined and I also tend to be focused on myself, but I'm happy for you.

Off Topic:

My knowledge of Mods and Rockers is limited to the movie Quadrophenia. In that movie, Jimmy (the hero of the movie) sings a Kinks song in the bathtub and this apparently identifies him as a Mod. Does this mean that you are a Mod?? All I know about the subject is what is in that movie so it might have mislead me.

I don't know what theory of mind is, but I think I have figured it out now. I found an example the other day, which might explain my knowledge of what theory of mind actually means.

One cold dull day, I was walking in the town when I came across a friend. She stopped and said, ''hi,'' then said, ''horrible, ain't it!'' And I said, ''yeh!'' And I knew she was saying about the weather, which she was. Is that what theory of mind is? I mean, if I didn't know any better, I'd probably say, ''what's horrible?'', but using this natural theory of mind thing made me just automatically know what she meant, without me having to think. Do you know what I mean?

Is that an example of using theory of mind?

I do not know, but if someone walked up to me on the street and said "Horrible, ain't it?" I'd have to ask what the horrible thing is. Sometimes I can work it out, sometimes I need context.

I also remember - under a lot of stress/anxiety - getting a ride to an appointment and taking the wrong route, and I was trying to explain the correct route, and the best I could say at first was "go the usual way." I was annoyed with myself because the person driving had never seen the usual/correct way, but that didn't cross my mind at the time.

I've been wondering ever since if this was part of what they label as a theory of mind problem - I don't think "theory of mind" itself adequately explains it, and has been pointed out the ToM problems themselves are confusing because they use complex language, and autistic people have difficulties with complex language constructions.

But I also remember I used to have a lot more trouble with people holding opinions different from my own. It was always so shocking and unexpected, and there are still things now that I consider downright obvious that other people don't even think about. Weird.

I don't think I have any theory of mind issues. I'm not boasting or anything - there are various Aspie issues I do have, I know! But theory of mind is not one of them.