No understanding of "authority"

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I'm in agreement with you there. I don't see why adults shouldn't talk to kids on equal terms, they're not idiots, they know when you're patronising them.

I'm 16 and my mum still does it to me at times, pisses me off a lot.

LOL. You and me went round and round on age and youth. I general, I give no deference to age, but it's hard to see that in an internet forum. I do give deference to experience, which is not always correlated to age in ways that one might expect.

All authority over others is imaginary. People have authority over their own lives, and that's about it.

Now, as for expecting others to take your word for it, we all do that sometimes. Hell, I need to do this less. But most people don't seem to understand when they talk at other people, however they see it when other people do it to them.

Yep, it has to do with being socially "blind".

This was probably the source of most pf my problems in school. I had my own ideas, I would come into class with my own reading materials and sit in the corner, ignoring what the teacher saud.

I wasn't really trying to be rebellious but I was put in Special Ed because they didn't know what to do with me. I have a better understanding of how authority and everything else works as an adult but...I still treat everyone equally, like you said. Some people make me nervous, but I have bene known to be alittle to casual even at jobs, with my supervisors.

This is a fascinating (and liberating) topic that I have spent quite a lot of time on in recent years. When you have a proper understanding of what authority truly is, you will feel amazingly free.

The key is to distinguish between the term "authority" and the term "power". Authority has the right to demand something of you and you are obligated to obey. You can choose to not obey but this is rebellion, and the authority has the option of exercising correction. True authority is rare, and is always defined clearly from the highest source of authority down to the lowest. In other words, a person with authority has the option to grant authority downward within the hierarchy. Authority MUST be defined in advance, or it is not true authority. One very key fact is that an authority will always have your best interests at heart.

Power is "might makes right". Its very simple. If someone is stronger than you then they may have "power" over you depending on whether someone else can come to your aid who has power over them. Its all about strength, not what is right or predefined. Strength can be in the form of having the power to throw you in prison, to kill you with a weapon, to beat you up and physically dominate you, or to withhold something you want unless you submit to them. Powers do not have your best interests at heart. They do what they do because it benefits them, not you. This is a distinguishing difference between the two.

Examples of authorities:
God, who is the authority over everything, and is the highest authority, period.
Husbands, who is the authority over his wife.
Parents who are authorities over their children until they leave the house.
Human beings, who are authorities over animals and the environment.
In some cases, kings or righteous governing bodies who sincerely serve their populace and have your best interest at heart.
That's pretty much it, for true authority.


Examples of powers:
Governments.
Police.
Your boss.
Your teacher.
Your military superiors.
Your religion's spiritual head-person (for those of you still involved in institutional religion).
Your peers who are stronger than you.
Anyone else who wants something from you and can use manipulative tactics to get it.
Anyone else who wants your submission and can withhold something you want to get it.

Among Christians, many believe that Romans 13 says we are to obey the government unconditionally. This is not true. The passage says we are to obey authorities, but it also defines these authorities right there in the same passage. So you know if they don't fit this description they are not your true authority:
* For there is no authority except from God, and the authorities that exist are appointed by God.
* For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to evil.
* Do you want to be unafraid of the authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same.
* For he is God’s minister to you for good. But if you do evil, be afraid; for he does not bear the sword in vain; for he is God’s minister, an avenger to execute wrath on him who practices evil.

Look carefully at this definition. That's what it is. A definition. A true authority praises good and punishes evil. Sort of NOT like the US federal government, who quite often does exactly the opposite. If you do good you should be completely unafraid of a true authority but I know many who do good and still have to watch out for the corrupt law bringers of man. And I know of many who do evil and this is permitted and even praised by these same powers. If obeying all governing powers was commanded, the colonists would have NEVER left England and even started America to begin with! That's a great example. its important to have a proper understanding of who is an authority and who is a power, so you can act accordingly. I engage in civil disobedience in many ways that I do not believe God looks down on me for because God doesn't say "drive exactly the speed limit" or "obey this or that arbitrary statute" or any number of other things I don't want to get into. Man's law says things like "do not offend others" but God's law says "Love your neighbor". So when I don't worry at all about obeying man's laws it does not mean that I am unruly and an anarchist. I am covered by obeying God's laws. If I "love my neighbor" I will be kind and generous to him, but if he is offended by something I say that is truthful, its not my problem.

Now, by disobeying powers there may be consequences, this is true. If you don't give the bully your lunch money you could get punched in the face. If you don't pay your income taxes, you could get thrown in prison. If you refuse to go, you could get shot. Resisting extremely strong "powers" usually leads to higher and higher sets of consequences unless you are skilled enough to evade them. But you are not morally obligated to obey them. You need to decide for yourself if your evasive skills are strong enough, or if your resistance to obeying the "power" is worth the consequence. Copying music is an example. You likely copy music. This is not against God's laws because it is not stealing. God says with authority, that you shall not steal. But intellectual property is a man made concept. Making a copy of something is not stealing because the original is still in the possession of the owner. "Loss of potential sales" does not constitute theft because the "right to sales" is not granted by any true authority. But there is a slight risk of being prosecuted by the powers for disobeying their laws, and you need to weigh the risks with the benefits when deciding on your action. Where it gets real interesting is when your authority says to do one thing and a power comes along and says you can't do that. You are obligated to obey your authority regardless of the consequences your power threatens you with. An example would be if God says to witness Christ to others or be ready to give an answer to your faith, you may very well tell that person what is true, and the governing powers can come along and charge you with "hate speech" or some other crazy thing. You don't hate anyone, you are just obeying your authority. The consequences are sometimes unavoidable.

Oh, and as a final note, if you don't recognize God's authority structure, you default to being subject to the powers. Your choice.

Anyways, I hope this helps some of you out. Your true authorities have a set of laws and rules that are few and simple, and for your benefit. The powers out there want to bully and oppress you with innumerable laws and statutes which are not for your own benefit, but rather for their own.

I like the way you put this Moog.

The difference b/t young-me and old-me is that young-me did not know anything about authority. I had my agenda, morels, and preferences what else was there as long as I kept to myself and attempted to be polite and kind to everyone.

Old-me totally gets that some people do have power over me (boss-pay check) and can exert their agenda, morels, and preferences over parts of my life. But I am still not very good at it.

Me too.

I relate to this very well.

Respect is earned, not given. Your status doesn't make me respect you. Its your actions.

When I was a little kid I thought God was the greatest authority and power. I was scared crapless of God. God basically demanded of his chosen subjects that they not worship other Gods or God will destroy them brutally. The thought of possibly making some mistake with the consequences of being tortured in Hell for eternity was scary. Living all of eternity in Hell is about the worst possible torture I could think of. It seemed disproportional to living a short life of human sin:

-Hell will also punish the sin of those who reject Christ (Matthew 13:41,50; Revelation 20:11-15; 21:8.
-Hell is conscious torment:
•Matthew 13:50 “furnace of fire…weeping and gnashing of teeth”
•Mark 9:48 “where their worm does not die, and the fire is not quenched”
•Revelation 14:10 “he will be tormented with fire and brimstone”
-Hell is eternal and irreversible:
•Revelation 14:11 “the smoke of their torment goes up forever and ever and they have no rest day and night”
•Revelation 20:14 “This is the second death, the lake of fire”
•Revelation 20:15 “If anyone’s name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of

When I finally stopped believing in God at about the age of 10, I felt free. To this day, I'm scared of really religious adults. I think there's something wrong with their brains.

Last edited by Kon on 04 Dec 2010, 9:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

depends. I am as good as the next and better than the one beyhond him, and authoritarian authorities perturb me. Lead,sure, but don't poke my rear with your sword.

But if theere is a clearly defined hierarchy - you are officially imn charge of this project - I may offer a suggestion but I will do as I am told and if it falls doswn it's your fault.

I can recognize authority easily, and am often scared of it. This doesn't mean that being in a position of power grants you automatic respect and admiration from me, however.

Man, I tried this idea out on my wife. She was having none of it

Well said indeed

I've always felt like authority is illegitimate if it cannot be justified and it took me so many years to figure out how to say it, I just came off as a trouble maker.

Of course having this opinion tends to lead to me coming off as a trouble maker even though I can, at this point, explain myself quite thoroughly.

"Unthinking respect for authority is the greatest enemy of truth" - Albert Enstein.

You've illustrated perfectly one of the most common reasons people misunderstand Christ. You see, God isn't some invisible bogie man looking to smite you for the first thing you do wrong. If you really read the Bible you'd see that the "get out of Hell free card" is absolutely free for anyone who wants it. Nobody goes to hell accidentally. So your childhood fear is unjustified by the text - and more justified by some jerk religious teacher who told you a lie about how it all works. Blame them, not God.

For more info don't ask me I'm not interested in the debate. Just read here:
http://carm.org/apologetics/evidence-an ... nyone-hell