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forestg
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09 Dec 2010, 12:26 pm

there are dis abilitys in it, as with most people will have dis abilitys, its the impact/severity it has on a persons life that make majarity in the pesentage a dis ability. If you find your niche then all is good and you get left alone. I am dis abled in what i do until i can find what i fit into and make work. Co morbids are a bigy and confusing aswell.



zeldapsychology
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09 Dec 2010, 12:30 pm

Interesting view. I agree I HATE the term Mental Illness IMO "Psychological Issues" seem a lot better since it is a behavior problem/issue/illness so Behavior issue/illness sounds better IMO. Mental=crazy and Mental illness is frowned upon still in todays era IMO. So I like Psychological issue much better.



Schala
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09 Dec 2010, 12:36 pm

I believe they are considered a disability in that the individual who is afflicted must attempt to cope in a world designed for and by the neurotypical.



Squirrelrat
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09 Dec 2010, 12:40 pm

Not everyone with Aspergers experiences positive effects of the condition to make up for the negative effects of the condition. For them, it is just a disability. Are we talking about mental disorders, as well? What about anorexia? Is there a positive side to that?



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09 Dec 2010, 12:50 pm

I would normally take offense to this but after reading the explanation about it, I can see your point of view and I agree. Society does make things a disability.

But how far do you draw the line for mental disabilities for society making them one?


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robh
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09 Dec 2010, 7:33 pm

Thanks for all the responses, glad to see that there are lots of opinionated people here :) The point I was trying to make with this post is similar to what anxiety25 rases in this post. The vast majority of mental differences (and a lot of physical disabilities) are purely genetic mutations, most of which can be passed on through breeding. I strongly beleve that what people today call "disabilities" are just examples of evolution in practice. The pseudo-random nature of genetics produces differences in offspring, and the strongest survive.

What is a 'normal'? Nothing more than the largest common denominator. If Aspies were the highest common denominator, then the normals of today would be labelled with some "disability".

Diagnosis of Asperger's and autism has been on the rise. While improved diagnosis techniques have certainly played a part in this, the ability of the autistic mind to understand, handle and program the computer infastructure which drives the modurn world must also be a significant factor. If Aspies are better suited to the increasing number of computer related jobs, they are more likely to breed.

Of course genetics will generate people that are totally incompatible with the current world, or appear to have "evolved backwards". Unfortunately that's just the nature of a random system.



wavefreak58
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09 Dec 2010, 9:01 pm

robh wrote:
Diagnosis of Asperger's and autism has been on the rise. While improved diagnosis techniques have certainly played a part in this, the ability of the autistic mind to understand, handle and program the computer infastructure which drives the modurn world must also be a significant factor. If Aspies are better suited to the increasing number of computer related jobs, they are more likely to breed.


What a bizarrely illogical assertion.

It is only a subset of autistics that excel with computers. And for every autistic that excels at computers there are more non-autistics that also excel. By your logic, the non-autistic computer experts will be also breeding. But by virtue of their higher numbers they will breed more frequently. Autism will hence decrease in frequency among computer literate populations.


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hale_bopp
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09 Dec 2010, 9:54 pm

Mental disibilities exist.

Downs syndrome is a mental and intellectual disibility.

Aspergers can be seen as a disibility, and is in many ways. Its not itellectual, but it is mental. For example, the NT who I live with doesn't get depressed or have meltdowns. She can socially interact well.

Yes there are positive things with it but that doesn't mean it can't be seen as a disibility.



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10 Dec 2010, 7:57 am

I think you're being myopic. Just because you have Asperger's and you're successful doesn't mean that everyone with a mental disability is the same. What about mentally ret*d people or lower-functioning autistic people? They aren't going to be as successful as someone as high-functioning as you.


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ruveyn
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10 Dec 2010, 8:17 am

robh wrote:
I don't like the term "Mental disability" when it is applied to conditions like AS. Unlike physical disabilities which are purely negative, most mental conditions are both positive and negative. For example AS reduces social ability, but gives back an obsessive personality and extreme logical thinking, both of which are very advantageous in todays computer driven society.

It is my view that "Mental disabilities" do not exist as such. They are just differences created by genetic mutations, the exact same mutations that allowed humans to evolve.

What is your view of this?


I agree. There are neurological dysfunctions. I believe in existence of brains. I do not believe in the existence of minds.

ruveyn



wavefreak58
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10 Dec 2010, 8:29 am

ruveyn wrote:

I do not believe in the existence of minds.

ruveyn



Huh?

Do ideas exist?


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theexternvoid
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10 Dec 2010, 8:53 am

They do exist, just not all things currently called disabilities are necessarily disabilities. What makes mental condistions trickier than physical is that it is rare to have a physical condition that has some good and some bad. Witha physical condition, a broken bone is never a good thing, MS is never a good thing, etc. Sickle cell is one rare examples of something that is a mix of good and bad: it's health problems and physical pain are well known, but what is lesser known is that it provides immunity to malaria, which can be a huge benefit for the Africans who have the sickle cell gene considering that malaria is one of the largest health threats over there (could save one from death, which is well worth the side effects).

With mental conditions, there are some that I think are hard to argue have anything positive and thus should be called mental disabilities, things like Downs, Alzheimer's, dementia, etc.

Something like Asperger's is different because for some people it is a net benefit and for some a net deficeit, others perhaps neutral. Even something never called a mental disability might qualify in some cases: academic giftedness. How many gifted bullied nerds suffer from severe depression and wish they weren't so smart so that they wouldn't be beat up by the football jocks?

For such conditions I don't think you can call the condition generally a disability, but you could call it a disability in specific cases. "Asperger's is a disability for Bob who can't hold down a job because of Asperger's, but not for Joe who is a successful systems administrator because of Asperger's."



wavefreak58
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10 Dec 2010, 9:11 am

theexternvoid wrote:
They do exist, just not all things currently called disabilities are necessarily disabilities. What makes mental condistions trickier than physical is that it is rare to have a physical condition that has some good and some bad. Witha physical condition, a broken bone is never a good thing, MS is never a good thing, etc. Sickle cell is one rare examples of something that is a mix of good and bad: it's health problems and physical pain are well known, but what is lesser known is that it provides immunity to malaria, which can be a huge benefit for the Africans who have the sickle cell gene considering that malaria is one of the largest health threats over there (could save one from death, which is well worth the side effects).

With mental conditions, there are some that I think are hard to argue have anything positive and thus should be called mental disabilities, things like Downs, Alzheimer's, dementia, etc.

Something like Asperger's is different because for some people it is a net benefit and for some a net deficeit, others perhaps neutral. Even something never called a mental disability might qualify in some cases: academic giftedness. How many gifted bullied nerds suffer from severe depression and wish they weren't so smart so that they wouldn't be beat up by the football jocks?

For such conditions I don't think you can call the condition generally a disability, but you could call it a disability in specific cases. "Asperger's is a disability for Bob who can't hold down a job because of Asperger's, but not for Joe who is a successful systems administrator because of Asperger's."


This feels like a very Aspie response. The predilection for precise categorization leads to an attempt to have clear lines drawn between disabled and not disabled. Such lines do not exist no matter how hard I might wish to make them.

I am curious what the actual statistics show regarding Aspies success in life. For every Temple Grandin, how many can't hold a decent job? Is a minimum wage job for someone of above average intelligence a successful life? Why are the lower functioning aspies being bullied by the higher ones into accepting a false dichotomy?


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Bluefins
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10 Dec 2010, 12:40 pm

robh wrote:
The vast majority of mental differences (and a lot of physical disabilities) are purely genetic mutations, most of which can be passed on through breeding. I strongly beleve that what people today call "disabilities" are just examples of evolution in practice. The pseudo-random nature of genetics produces differences in offspring, and the strongest survive.

Except that we call the weakest disabled instead of killing them off.

Disability
1. the condition of being unable to perform a task or function because of a physical or mental impairment
2. something that disables; handicap
3. lack of necessary intelligence, strength, etc

It's not necessary for a disability to have no positive qualities, nor does it have to be from a particular source. It just has to be a big enough disadvantage that you can't function normally in one area.
Quote:
What is a 'normal'? Nothing more than the largest common denominator. If Aspies were the highest common denominator, then the normals of today would be labelled with some "disability".

Yep, and it doesn't make us any less disabled in this society.
Quote:
Diagnosis of Asperger's and autism has been on the rise. While improved diagnosis techniques have certainly played a part in this, the ability of the autistic mind to understand, handle and program the computer infastructure which drives the modurn world must also be a significant factor. If Aspies are better suited to the increasing number of computer related jobs, they are more likely to breed.

- People don't get diagnosed with AS for being good at computers, they get diagnosed with it for being socially disabled. In fact, if you fit the symptoms except that they don't cause you significant impairment, you won't get diagnosed with AS.
- Better suited to computer jobs is debatable. The top companies would want the most skilled workers, even if they're otherwise impaired, but others don't care that much about skill. They'd rather have an ok programmer with good social skills than a great one with bad social skills.
- Since when were nerds generally considered sexy? Again, you need social skills to get laid / married.
- Evolution doesn't happen in one generation.



ruveyn
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10 Dec 2010, 1:09 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:

I do not believe in the existence of minds.

ruveyn



Huh?

Do ideas exist?


Ideas are a form of electro-chemical activity that takes place in the brain.

ruveyn



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10 Dec 2010, 1:24 pm

Delirium wrote:
I think you're being myopic. Just because you have Asperger's and you're successful doesn't mean that everyone with a mental disability is the same. What about mentally ret*d people or lower-functioning autistic people? They aren't going to be as successful as someone as high-functioning as you.



But doesn't society make those disabilities too? :wink:


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