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Lacking in social instinct, grrr

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Maje
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18 Feb 2011, 12:59 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:
Cool. 8)

FWIW, while I can be very sarcastic, in this instance I really was genuinely confused. Ironically, for this thread, my confusion is a great example of the differences in social instincts between those on and off the spectrum.


Because a NTs never get socially confused? Thats a wild hypothese, as NTs are as confused about me as I am about them. If somebody sais "thank you" and "you are great", why dont you just understand it as it is? If Im ever wrong about something like that, I think Im talking to an as*****! Confusion is sometimes unavoidable, but it is a good idea to stick to the obvious. I feel alright with myself if Im wrong sometimes and evil people I leave behind as quick as possible. Maybe they someday regret, and if not, poor them. It is unlikely that the one who started this tread woul be that evil to everybody who answered it, dont you think?



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18 Feb 2011, 1:06 pm

Maje wrote:
wavefreak58 wrote:
Cool. 8)

FWIW, while I can be very sarcastic, in this instance I really was genuinely confused. Ironically, for this thread, my confusion is a great example of the differences in social instincts between those on and off the spectrum.


Because a NTs never get socially confused? Thats a wild hypothese, as NTs are as confused about me as I am about them. If somebody sais "thank you" and "you are great", why dont you just understand it as it is? If Im ever wrong about something like that, I think Im talking to an as*****! Confusion is sometimes unavoidable, but it is a good idea to stick to the obvious. I feel alright with myself if Im wrong sometimes and evil people I leave behind as quick as possible. Maybe they someday regret, and if not, poor them. It is unlikely that the one who started this tread woul be that evil to everybody who answered it, dont you think?


The premise was that NTs have instincts for other NTs and autistics for autistics. If chickenbird is on the spectrum and I am on the spectrum then the premise would dictate that I would have valid social instincts towards chickenbird. My confusion demonstrates that, at least in this case, my social instinct was ineffective. This would suggest that at least for one person on the spectrum (me), social instincts are deficient regardless of context.


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wavefreak58
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18 Feb 2011, 1:23 pm

Just so people don't get the wrong idea about me, I find it quite plausible that autism and genius are inextricably linked. In fact I quite easily derived a mathematical/symbolic model that shows if genius and autism share a set of genes that eliminating autism will also eliminate genius. I should probably write it down, but basically if the intersection of the necessary AND sufficient set of genes that produces autism with the necessary and sufficient set of genes that produces genius is not empty then eliminating autism by preventing the expression of the genes within that intersection would also eliminate genius.

QED


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18 Feb 2011, 1:33 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:
The premise was that NTs have instincts for other NTs and autistics for autistics. If chickenbird is on the spectrum and I am on the spectrum then the premise would dictate that I would have valid social instincts towards chickenbird. My confusion demonstrates that, at least in this case, my social instinct was ineffective. This would suggest that at least for one person on the spectrum (me), social instincts are deficient regardless of context.

Eh, sarcasm (or the lack of) in writing is notoriously hard to detect for everyone. I don't think it says more than that.

Also, NTs & autists aren't homogenous groups. Things like culture, upbringing, kind of autism are going to impact socialization as well. No two people are exactly the same, so there's always going to be something to disagree about.



Last edited by Bluefins on 18 Feb 2011, 1:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.

KBerg
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18 Feb 2011, 1:34 pm

Either that or indicate that some things have the potential to be equally socially confusing across the board. The sarcasm/serious dilemma messes up NTs just as much, I've had any combination of get it/not get it between NTs and Aspies on sarcasm/serious. An NT friend had a theory that it was not possible to use sarcasm to satirize any given subject to the point where there won't be someone who thinks that not only are you serious and your idea is excellent but wants to take it even further. I shudder to think whether he's been testing that theory in the last few years since when he put it forth there was no such thing as youtube comments for him to prove his point.



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18 Feb 2011, 1:42 pm

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poe%27s_Law



wavefreak58
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18 Feb 2011, 1:44 pm

Bluefins wrote:
wavefreak58 wrote:
The premise was that NTs have instincts for other NTs and autistics for autistics. If chickenbird is on the spectrum and I am on the spectrum then the premise would dictate that I would have valid social instincts towards chickenbird. My confusion demonstrates that, at least in this case, my social instinct was ineffective. This would suggest that at least for one person on the spectrum (me), social instincts are deficient regardless of context.

Eh, sarcasm (or the lack of) in writing is notoriously hard to detect for everyone. I don't think it says more than that.

Also, NTs & autists aren't homogenous groups. Things like culture, upbringing, kind of autism are going to impact socialization as well. No two people are exactly the same, so there's always going to be something to disagree about.


This explains WHY my social instinct was inadequate - sarcasm is hard. But it does not remove the fact that it was inadequate. It practical terms, NTs are better at sarcasm and tend to use it more. If my theory of mind were better, I would have applied this fact to the situation and recognizing that chickenbird is ASD I would have made the more likely assumption that sarcasm was not in play. But I could not even make that particular conceptual leap.


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18 Feb 2011, 1:55 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:
This explains WHY my social instinct was inadequate - sarcasm is hard. But it does not remove the fact that it was inadequate. It practical terms, NTs are better at sarcasm and tend to use it more. If my theory of mind were better, I would have applied this fact to the situation and recognizing that chickenbird is ASD I would have made the more likely assumption that sarcasm was not in play. But I could not even make that particular conceptual leap.
I think you're being too hard on yourself. Autists do sometimes use sarcasm. Sure, you were wrong, but no one is always right.

Basically, if no one can ever misunderstand someone without having inadequate social instincts, everyone has inadequate social instincts. If you look at the amount of harm done by the misunderstanding (which seems a better measure of the adequacy of your communication), it's basically nothing - just a bit of lost time, and maybe some emotional turmoil.



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18 Feb 2011, 2:45 pm

KBerg wrote:
Funny story, a co-worker of an acquaintance of mine was working in a summer camp for Aspies abroad helping to coordinate and organize so the Aspie kids felt at ease. At the camp the NTs and Aspies had special badges to distinguish them so that the Aspies could talk to another Aspie if they felt more at ease doing that, or if they needed to make sure they were clearly understood. At the end of the first day this poor NT man was practically in tears.

No one had come up to talk to him the entire first day. They'd talked to the Aspie coworkers who were organizing, but not to him and he felt completely alone. Once his Aspie coworkers realized how upset he was they did everything they could to make him feel more comfortable. And people did approach him on his second day, though never as much as the Aspies. But he told my acquaintance that it was one of the more humbling experiences in his life, because even though he'd been learning about AS for years this was the first time he felt he understood what it was like to be so very alone and feel completely rejected by a crowd that didn't speak the same social language.



What a wonderful story, and such unusual circumstances. I didn't think it was possible to put the idea to the test, but there you are.
So, we are just different. Thank you KBerg :)


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Aspieallien
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18 Feb 2011, 5:12 pm

KBerg wrote:
Aspieallien wrote:
NTs have their own social system based on the commonalities they share within their mass produced pack culture.
If a minority of NTs had to live in an Aspie dominated world I am sure they would be regarded as having very little empathy and having poor social skills as they would then be outside of the so called norm.

Funny story, a co-worker of an acquaintance of mine was working in a summer camp for Aspies abroad helping to coordinate and organize so the Aspie kids felt at ease. At the camp the NTs and Aspies had special badges to distinguish them so that the Aspies could talk to another Aspie if they felt more at ease doing that, or if they needed to make sure they were clearly understood. At the end of the first day this poor NT man was practically in tears.

No one had come up to talk to him the entire first day. They'd talked to the Aspie coworkers who were organizing, but not to him and he felt completely alone. Once his Aspie coworkers realized how upset he was they did everything they could to make him feel more comfortable. And people did approach him on his second day, though never as much as the Aspies. But he told my acquaintance that it was one of the more humbling experiences in his life, because even though he'd been learning about AS for years this was the first time he felt he understood what it was like to be so very alone and feel completely rejected by a crowd that didn't speak the same social language.



I think this is a great story, it confirms the theory and point I was trying to make quite well. A lone NT amongst a majority of Aspies felt quite left out and alone, and could be seen as the loner with poor social skills and lacking empathy.


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18 Feb 2011, 5:41 pm

Aspieallien wrote:
KBerg wrote:
Aspieallien wrote:
NTs have their own social system based on the commonalities they share within their mass produced pack culture.
If a minority of NTs had to live in an Aspie dominated world I am sure they would be regarded as having very little empathy and having poor social skills as they would then be outside of the so called norm.

Funny story, a co-worker of an acquaintance of mine was working in a summer camp for Aspies abroad helping to coordinate and organize so the Aspie kids felt at ease. At the camp the NTs and Aspies had special badges to distinguish them so that the Aspies could talk to another Aspie if they felt more at ease doing that, or if they needed to make sure they were clearly understood. At the end of the first day this poor NT man was practically in tears.

No one had come up to talk to him the entire first day. They'd talked to the Aspie coworkers who were organizing, but not to him and he felt completely alone. Once his Aspie coworkers realized how upset he was they did everything they could to make him feel more comfortable. And people did approach him on his second day, though never as much as the Aspies. But he told my acquaintance that it was one of the more humbling experiences in his life, because even though he'd been learning about AS for years this was the first time he felt he understood what it was like to be so very alone and feel completely rejected by a crowd that didn't speak the same social language.



I think this is a great story, it confirms the theory and point I was trying to make quite well. A lone NT amongst a majority of Aspies felt quite left out and alone, and could be seen as the loner with poor social skills and lacking empathy.


It says NOTHING about aspie and NT behavior. This type of exclusionary dynamic mimics classic psychological experiments in group behavior. All this story does is illustrate that aspies can just as arbitrarily exclude people from their groups as an NT.

Take any group of people. Visually label them so that the group is divided. Assign preference to one group. Sit back and watch. Even more interesting is when the preferred group is in the minority. Throw some sort of resource allocation into the mix and things get really bizarre.

http://www.experiment-resources.com/asch-experiment.html


http://www.experiment-resources.com/stanford-prison-experiment.html

http://www.experiment-resources.com/stanley-milgram-experiment.html


http://www.experiment-resources.com/social-psychology-experiments.html


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18 Feb 2011, 6:02 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:
Aspieallien wrote:
KBerg wrote:
Aspieallien wrote:
NTs have their own social system based on the commonalities they share within their mass produced pack culture.
If a minority of NTs had to live in an Aspie dominated world I am sure they would be regarded as having very little empathy and having poor social skills as they would then be outside of the so called norm.

Funny story, a co-worker of an acquaintance of mine was working in a summer camp for Aspies abroad helping to coordinate and organize so the Aspie kids felt at ease. At the camp the NTs and Aspies had special badges to distinguish them so that the Aspies could talk to another Aspie if they felt more at ease doing that, or if they needed to make sure they were clearly understood. At the end of the first day this poor NT man was practically in tears.

No one had come up to talk to him the entire first day. They'd talked to the Aspie coworkers who were organizing, but not to him and he felt completely alone. Once his Aspie coworkers realized how upset he was they did everything they could to make him feel more comfortable. And people did approach him on his second day, though never as much as the Aspies. But he told my acquaintance that it was one of the more humbling experiences in his life, because even though he'd been learning about AS for years this was the first time he felt he understood what it was like to be so very alone and feel completely rejected by a crowd that didn't speak the same social language.



I think this is a great story, it confirms the theory and point I was trying to make quite well. A lone NT amongst a majority of Aspies felt quite left out and alone, and could be seen as the loner with poor social skills and lacking empathy.


It says NOTHING about aspie and NT behavior. This type of exclusionary dynamic mimics classic psychological experiments in group behavior. All this story does is illustrate that aspies can just as arbitrarily exclude people from their groups as an NT.

Take any group of people. Visually label them so that the group is divided. Assign preference to one group. Sit back and watch. Even more interesting is when the preferred group is in the minority. Throw some sort of resource allocation into the mix and things get really bizarre.

http://www.experiment-resources.com/asch-experiment.html


http://www.experiment-resources.com/stanford-prison-experiment.html

http://www.experiment-resources.com/stanley-milgram-experiment.html


http://www.experiment-resources.com/social-psychology-experiments.html


I undestand what you say, but I still feel good about it. Not that I want the poor guy in the story to suffer. You say it is arbitrary, well
that is kind of what I think too. I think my "problems" are statistical, not personal. There just aren't enough people like me
around.


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Aspieallien
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18 Feb 2011, 9:06 pm

wavefreak58 wrote:
Aspieallien wrote:
KBerg wrote:
Aspieallien wrote:
NTs have their own social system based on the commonalities they share within their mass produced pack culture.
If a minority of NTs had to live in an Aspie dominated world I am sure they would be regarded as having very little empathy and having poor social skills as they would then be outside of the so called norm.

Funny story, a co-worker of an acquaintance of mine was working in a summer camp for Aspies abroad helping to coordinate and organize so the Aspie kids felt at ease. At the camp the NTs and Aspies had special badges to distinguish them so that the Aspies could talk to another Aspie if they felt more at ease doing that, or if they needed to make sure they were clearly understood. At the end of the first day this poor NT man was practically in tears.

No one had come up to talk to him the entire first day. They'd talked to the Aspie coworkers who were organizing, but not to him and he felt completely alone. Once his Aspie coworkers realized how upset he was they did everything they could to make him feel more comfortable. And people did approach him on his second day, though never as much as the Aspies. But he told my acquaintance that it was one of the more humbling experiences in his life, because even though he'd been learning about AS for years this was the first time he felt he understood what it was like to be so very alone and feel completely rejected by a crowd that didn't speak the same social language.



I think this is a great story, it confirms the theory and point I was trying to make quite well. A lone NT amongst a majority of Aspies felt quite left out and alone, and could be seen as the loner with poor social skills and lacking empathy.


It says NOTHING about aspie and NT behavior. This type of exclusionary dynamic mimics classic psychological experiments in group behavior. All this story does is illustrate that aspies can just as arbitrarily exclude people from their groups as an NT.

Take any group of people. Visually label them so that the group is divided. Assign preference to one group. Sit back and watch. Even more interesting is when the preferred group is in the minority. Throw some sort of resource allocation into the mix and things get really bizarre.



No, it says absolutely EVERTHING about the scenario I was talking about in the first place. The fact that this behaviour is not necessarily unique specifically to either Aspie or NT is irrelevant. It just happens that this is the two groups of people we are discussing here. Yes you can expect to see this behaviour in many other groups I'm sure as this is part of human behaviour. My point here really was to invert the situation to demonstrate how NTs could suddenly become loners lacking in empathy and social skills if they were the less preferred minority group, and that being the less preferred minority group in itself contributes greatly to issues facing Aspies.


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18 Feb 2011, 10:25 pm

Aspieallien wrote:
No, it says absolutely EVERTHING about the scenario I was talking about in the first place. The fact that this behaviour is not necessarily unique specifically to either Aspie or NT is irrelevant. It just happens that this is the two groups of people we are discussing here. Yes you can expect to see this behaviour in many other groups I'm sure as this is part of human behaviour. My point here really was to invert the situation to demonstrate how NTs could suddenly become loners lacking in empathy and social skills if they were the less preferred minority group, and that being the less preferred minority group in itself contributes greatly to issues facing Aspies.


You are demonstrating confirmation bias. You have a point of view. A scenario is presented. You interpret that scenario in the light most favorable to your point of view.

First, by labeling everyone in the camp aspie or no aspie, you immediately skew the interactions towards biases intrinsic to each person. That alone is enough to destroy the inference you want to make (that aspies naturally socialize better with other aspies). By labeling them you have already divided the population. This anecdote is just that. It is an anecdote.


Something I don't get is this "aspies are superior" thing. I spent my entire life on the fringes, the recipient of exclusionary attitudes and biases. After decades of isolation I found a community of people just like me, and, ironies of ironies, there is a disturbing number of them that have adopted the same exclusionary attitudes and biases that have caused me so much pain. I really don't get it.


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18 Feb 2011, 10:43 pm

I think arrogance is one of the defense mechanisms listed in the complete guide. heh.



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19 Feb 2011, 12:02 am

No I do agree that by marking who is what the guy really didn't stand a chance. The Aspies did want to talk to one of their own. What I found interesting about it was how his Aspie coworkers, once they realized how miserable he was, really did try to help out and include him. That and the fact that here was a guy who had never experienced anything like that level of exclusion and his reaction to it (extremely upset and frustrated to the point of crying) wasn't all that different from an Aspie's. I don't think we're somehow magically better, the fact that no one approached the lone NT they knew from a visual cue was different than they were kind of shows that. If anything I think it shows that on basic level we're very similar.

They didn't always use those badges. I'd asked my friend because it seemed so weird to mark people like that and she told me the reason they had started to use the different badges was because people would approach someone to ask a question or to share experiences, Then they'd realized during the conversation the other person was an NT and it made them uncomfortable or had lead to confusion with questions. They used to have their guests even just leave a conversation flat out once they realized they were talking to an NT, the badges were something they started using to make people more at ease after the complaints they'd gotten the previous year.