non verbal autistics on the forums?

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Yes, what Dae said. In far more words than I could normally handle.

Written English is not the same language as spoken English, similar in primarily superficial ways. Those who are verbal often alter written English to suit spoken English rules, especially in informal contexts. Whether it is their interpretation of my written words or the formulation of their written words makes little difference to the end result.

The fact that those who insist that being nonverbal renders us in a different world or to a different species often still persist in making assumptions as if we were not is so illogical as to continually surprise me despite it's frequent occurrence. It doesn't make sense.

This makes a lot of sense to me. I'm verbal, but to me written English is miles ahead of spoken English in terms of expression and communication. It's simply easier to manage. .

Anyway, I do not love the tendency to demand full grammatical accuracy. It's simply not possible for everyone to do, and there's a long-standing Internet joke that anyone who flames someone else for grammatical or spelling errors is doomed to include such an error in their flame (and this is often true). To me, if the message is understandable, there's not a problem. If the message is not clear, asking for clarification goes much further than berating them for not adhering to official grammatical structure.

I have to admit I learned this the hard way about 16 or so years ago, by managing to seriously offend and nearly losing a friend by mocking a spelling error. It took me weeks to understand what happened, and when I tried to explain what I thought had happened, he thought I was trying to make it his fault - and I can't really blame him. So, it's not something I think works out as a conversational gambit. Best avoided and often irrelevant.

Can someone explain to me what Dae said in that long post in like, five sentences or less? The less the better. I've tried reading it three times and I just don't understand I am a perfectly intelligent human being... there's just a communication issue going on. It's probably me, usually is.

SuperTrouper; Sorry for that long entry...Just one of the things I feel passionate/have a lot to 'say' about. One of the main points I think we're getting established here is those who are verbal-oriented sometimes/often apply rules (that they follow regarding verbal behaviors/decisions) to non-verbal formats (i.e. e-mail or posted text). It's kind of a specialized analogy to the idea/concept that NT's make general (and, too often, damaging in some way) decisions about Aspies with ONLY an NT value system in mind. Because of not having 'broadened' their minds (in the ways/experiences that Aspies/Auties do), NT's don't SEE/perceive/comprehend Aspie-relevant behaviors and actions FOR WHAT THEY ARE. This holds true for many 'verbals' not recognizing 'non-verbals' unless we rear up and bite them on the nose. Verbals only see others (and the world) through a verbal paradigm.

Make any more sense?

Dae, excellent posts. i think you need to be the world's first non verbal lawyer

As long as I get paid in cookies! Ha!

Yeah, makes more sense, thanks.

But when I type, I "talk" just like everyone else talks. I just don't talk with my mouth sometimes.

But if I'm going to talk as in speak, then you kind of have to learn Lydia-ese to understand me. You know to know the nine-hundred meanings of "kitty cat," for example, and which one I mean at the time.

*bakes 3 batches of cookies especially for Dae*

This thread has got me excited, because no one in my life ever understands that written language is totally different from spoken language! And so I might communicate with someone via email who will then decide that it would "be easier" to give me a call on the phone. The problem is that though I may be able to fake my way through that verbal conversation, hardly any of it will register in my brain. Whereas, had they just written what they said in an email, it would have. Written language (for me) is very much visual and logical. I often find that I don't have a verbal equivalent of certain written words, because I don't read them as spoken words; I read them as images/symbols. So I might know and understand a certain word thoroughly in its written form but not recognize it at all in its spoken form.

I have a very hard time reading when people write in text speak, and this is exactly because of the above. I understand words visually, so if you spell phonetically, I need a decoder ring to work out what you said.

I'm not non-verbal myself. I do speak, just not very often, and it's very far from my preferred mode of communication.

Zen, that's the WORST part about speaking- I don't ever remember anything said (unless it's an echolalia kind of remembering, one that I don't really process). I just don't process speech well.

I feel like I kind of "get" the "kitty cat" thing. Although i'm hyperlexic, people have this tendency to assume the words coming out of my mouth accurately represent what's going on in my head, or express my needs/wants/emotions. I've gotten closer over the years, but that journey is in no way complete.

Spontaneous verbal communication is like...ridiculously difficult for me. I can give you a breathtaking half-hour presentation on women who created illuminated manuscripts between 900 A.D. and 1300 A.D., but asking for the salt at the dinner table? How does I done do that thing there give please????

In contrast to "polite society functioning", my fiancee and I have a whole language of groans, grunts, cat noises, and one-word sentences that convey whole worlds of meaning.

Yeah, I get what my staff calls "cocktail syndrome," where I talk but don't fully understand what I'm saying, but it sounds like I'm making sense.

But what comes out of my mouth does NOT always add up to what I actually mean. Problem is, on occasion I actually make sense with my mouth, and then people believe what I say when... it's not right. Or not quite right. I make big messes this way.

It would be far better for all involved if I either 1. plastered on my forehead "don't listen to me without asking a zillion questions" or 2. only typed or, I suppose 3. if someone taught me how to make my words match my thoughts, for which I don't hold out hope.

Hi Dae,
well, I didn't understand even you explanation... maybe because I'm an NT. Did you mean that written laqnguage can be considered a communication system that is apart from spoken language?
You don't post so much on WP, don't feel uncomfortable because some people (like me) will enjoy your posts.
I'm on WP because my son has classic autism. He will turn 4 in september and I still have not found a way to comuncate with him. He can say few words but he's often echoic. Often he finds the way to be understood but an NT parent wants to converse with her son and struggles. I can't avoid it. It is nearly impossible to me imagine that people can write and not talk, really I can't imagine why... It's amazing that, even if not spoken, language structure is so well used in written form.

Zen wrote: *bakes 3 batches of cookies especially for Dae*

I write:
Yahoo! Cookies all around!

claudia wrote: Hi Dae, well, I didn't understand even you explanation... maybe because I'm an NT. Did you mean that written laqnguage can be considered a communication system that is apart from spoken language? You don't post so much on WP, don't feel uncomfortable because some people (like me) will enjoy your posts. I'm on WP because my son has classic autism. He will turn 4 in september and I still have not found a way to comuncate with him. He can say few words but he's often echoic. Often he finds the way to be understood but an NT parent wants to converse with her son and struggles. I can't avoid it. It is nearly impossible to me imagine that people can write and not talk, really I can't imagine why... It's amazing that, even if not spoken, language structure is so well used in written form.

I write:
Claudia, it may be you're not understanding because I've tried formulating/orienting my posts to make sense to Aspies/Auties (a relief actually, since I can have the rare luxury of slanting my expression more towards how I actually am/think rather than tailoring it for a non-Aspie 'audience'/recipient). I could try making clarifications better oriented towards your mindset, but may need to 'know' you a bit better. This leads to my first question about you: Is English your 'native' language - or is Italian (I'm seeing you're currently in Rome...)?

...To try responding to your second item; I personally USE written language differently from how I use spoken language AND I get dramatically different results in a written format as opposed to results gotten in a verbal format (and I think at least one reason for this is because written formats, due to their inherent nature, are timed/TAKE time differently than verbal formats do). My usage of written language and the subsequent results, however, are not necessarily applicable parameters when deciding if written language is indeed a communication system entirely considered as a separate entity from spoken language. I only know that, theoretically, it's possible for a written-only communicative format to be created/developed/in existence much like verbal-only formats have been created/developed/(possibly still) in existence (maybe one or more of the Amazon tribes since our Native Americans are more-or-less users of written literacy now). It may also be relevant that, if I'd followed teachers' advice during my grade school years ('Write like how you talk'), my assigned research Papers would have been tragedies - and very short.

To go on, written-only communicative formats are not the only ways non-verbals can/may enact/attempt communicate/communication. This takes me to the referencing of your son. If you take any advice/suggestions from me at all then please, please! do not force verbal behavior from your son. You write that you still haven't found a way to communicate with him. This is a frequent result from parents who rely on what THEY know in order to teach and train their children -- and what those parents know is modeling and reinforcing verbalizations and verbal behaviors in general (this could be compared to Spanish-speaking adults trying to facilitate their children learning English in the schools here in California/the West...the results are often less-than-desirable and many Spanish-speaking adults have begun choosing not to try - which leads their depending on their children for translations). The insistence on this process formula (verbal NT-Parent:/:possibly non-verbal Autie-child) leads to great (and avoidable) distress in individuals who are naturally (and in/of themselves) other-than-verbal (please note, non-verbal DOES NOT EQUATE TO NON-COMMUNICATIVE). This process is also very similar to the compulsory oral-only demands deaf children experienced here in the U.S. in the 1960's (and, unfortunately, in still a few academic institutions today...compulsory English/speech was also imposed on Native Americans who'd had their own 'languages' - including Sign variations and who were often baffled by how verbose the 'whites' were). Insisting that those deaf children NOT use Sign Language and ONLY learn to lip-read led to a 'success' rate of LESS THAN 25% of all participants meeting 'adequate' lip-reading standards. <25% is an abysmal 'return' rate - especially in light of the mental anguish those children and their family (with whom communication STILL couldn't take place) experienced.. Yet those children (and family members) were of normal-to-above intelligence and obviously motivated...and often dismissed as just not having tried hard enough or as being mentally deficient in some way. ...[Incidentally, the term 'Audism' (not 'Autism') has bearing here also...though the term is currently being applied by 'mainstream' only towards the non-hearing...not towards the non-speaking...]

Please don't let lack of effort/mental deficiency be an accusation you'll accept towards your son's efforts - nor towards your own efforts. 'Trying harder' to 'correct' something will never be credible if what's being tried is inaccurate/inappropriate in the first place (nor if 'corrective' efforts are being focused on the wrong aspect of a situation. For example, there's the mentality that Autism isn't actually a 'problem' until those ignorant of Autistic relevancies create some conflict or another...and then dismiss the resultant 'mess' by stating the other's presence as a 'disability' needing correction).

So, then your question may become: If not nearly 100% effort toward generating verbalizations from him, then what DO I do to establish communications with my son? Written communication, of course, is pretty much out of the picture right now (an assumption on my part...feel free to correct me if needed) and probably will be for a number of years yet to come. But, I did come across some online info some months back regarding a mother who had found her 'differently-abled' son (who wrote very poorly) became very proficient when allowed to try typing. It led to increased communications (one such communicative mechanism for typed messages is a machine called the DANA). Typing takes certain motor skills as well as the actual 'intellectual' processing/comprehending of it at concept level. Certain typing keyboard modifications (there are several designs on the market - including one that 'splits' the letters down an elevated 'middle', creating less likelihood of carpal tunnel), including changing default keystrokes within the software, can help minimize frustrations and the time necessary to make/send the communications. This is one idea that can also be adapted to using picture/graphics software until your child's ready to move on to 'words' with letters...Please be prepared for what will seem to be agonizingly slow progress at the letter/word learning, reading, and writing stage -- this stage is almost unfailingly taught VERBALLY and may make little-to-no sense to those surviving/living non-verbally and/or through logic since our alphabet (thus, our words) is truly just comprised of arbitrary symbol assignments. Plus, your son may be aware of the other students well enough to realize they appear to be progressing much more quickly than he. That often is a very demoralizing (and, thus, an ever-slowing/distasteful learning) experience.

Before my 'nuclear' family broke apart, I had a younger sibling with Classic Autism. Our mother was homeschooling him and decided to homeschool another sibling of mine at the same time. That other sibling was younger than the sibling with Classic Autism and soon began doing considerably better than the older sibling. It made for some disastrous dynamics in the household. An unhappy Autie might not speak it out very well but everybody can still feel that undeniable 'negative' emotion and its results. I've seen certain 'techniques' (some rather simplistic, even) since then that could have spared a great many 'meltdowns', could have spared agitation and heartache, could have borne out many more positive outcomes...I hope for better for today's kids.

I would think, at this time for you and your son, just living life together (without applying standards/expectations that are unrealistic to the situation) could be the absolute best gift you and he could give each other. His age of 4 years could be considered as being much, much younger in 'Autie' years. His pace of learning/comprehension/recall is going to be very different from others his age, his 'peers'. Skipping the comparisons will be a favor to yourself (and to him...though non-verbal, he's still quite capable of sensing disapproval, disappointment, and other emotional output from others). Really scrutinizing your goals/hopes for him can be a worthwhile exercise too. Above all, see and ABSORB how he communicates. He may not be speaking right now but that does NOT mean he isn't communicating. For me, actions always speak louder than words...to the point that if a speaker's words don't 'match' their actions (as I perceive them), then I'll discard whatever they'd said to me and make decisions on their actions only. I don't live so much in the verbal world...not like I do in the non-verbal world. For somebody who's verbal-oriented, this idea can be very difficult in understanding, in imagining the non-verbal's 'world-view' and the resultant decisions - this is where they ('verbals') begin insisting 'but, I TOLD you...'.

Your boy is 'speaking' to you through actions right now. Since you are definitely the closest to him (and not just in proximity) right now, you have the best chance of figuring out how to communicate with him instead of insisting that he figure out how to communicate with you. He is FROM you. He is OF you. Figuring out how to communicate with this piece of you (your son) means figuring out another way of communicating with yourself. You could imagine to yourself how you might try communicating if you'd been born without speech. He's behaving like you would have...

It's said we are all pieces of each other...maybe somewhere along the way, some of us lost the initiative to communicate in the variety of ways we once had as a species. I'd say you've got the initiative. Now you just need to recognize and drop the limitations that verbal-only-based communications have created in your life. Learn your son's 'language'. Go to an acting class where the instructor gives scenes that must be described/acted out WITHOUT WORDS (this was experienced by Barbra Streisand who is recognized as a phenomenal actress). Read "Deaf Like Me" by Thomas Spradley - the book describes several 'home-made' communicative devices that weren't reliant on audible speech (if you do decide to read this book, you might arrive at one of the same conclusions I did: Long-term success regarding a child's communicative flexibility increases dramatically in cases of the child being allowed her/his TRUE native 'language' FIRST, before adding another/other language(s) later in her/his life). Decide if you personally could invest the effort needed to learn Sign Language, Signed Exact English, Makaton, or any of the other hand 'languages'. 'Talk' to your boy without words - show facial animation repeatedly throughout your time together -and point. Pointing's a universal 'language' in almost any 'conversation'. Communicate from different distances, angles, - even upside down to each other (such as one of you sitting in a chair, the other laying head-first at the feet...) Use your entire body as a single instrument for communication. Pantomime. Use hand pressure to indicate a physical action/direction you want from him.

Raise his tactile awareness through fabrics (felt, satin, weave...), his sense of taste with food 'experiments', visual aesthetics with viewing (and creating his own) pieces of art, explore (cautious) sound experimenting with simple noise recordings or unvoiced music, perform an occasional 'smells laboratory' to raise awareness of scents' significances... All these are ways of educating without creating academic-type situations in which he could so easily give 'the wrong answer' AND these ways will seem/feel/be perceived by him as more real than spoken words (I once learned a complicated data-entry process from somebody who had laryngitis at the time - it was possibly the best learning experience I have ever had in my life). These are also ways of educating (a form of communication!) without having to coerce verbalization. Living through his senses as much as possible (a common educating 'technique' utilized in home-schooling) helps him begin collecting information about his environment (from which he can make 'well-reasoned', informed life decisions) and lays in the habit of 'trying things out' vs 'not trying things out' - with the added 'benefit' of creating the distinct possibility that he'd be more apt to try using his voice, living (at least parts/some of his life) verbally. It also helps you gain information about him in other-than-verbal ways. Help him (and maybe yourself) begin to see that living life - holistically - can actually occur even if one is non-verbal but that verbalizing/allowing others to verbalize could also have its 'rewards'/advantages. Communicate any way you can (and yes, that includes your own ability of audible speech at times) knowing, that even if he doesn't seem to be responding (in the ways you recognize), he IS RECEIVING.

An example about receiving: I have excellent peripheral vision/awareness. Many, many 'verbals' and/or NT's aren't aware of this - I would guess because they don't have it or haven't utilized it themselves. Because of their lack of awareness, they usually think I haven't seen a significant gesture (such as if they're pointing at something or have Signed something) or movement (such as sneaking something in/out of their pocket or rolling their eyes). But, they sent the message and I happened to have received...whether they realized my receiving it or not (usually it's not). Your boy might not be looking at you when you're 'sending a message', but that doesn't default into meaning that he didn't receive it.

And, finally, see how you can return the favor by learning how to receive his communications in turn. After all, communication = message sent (or conveyed), message received, and possibly, received message acted upon. How messages are sent, received, and acted on IS A MATTER OF PERCEPTION - so changing how those acts (sending, receiving, and acting on) are determined as having been completed may be a helpful step. Realizing (truly realizing) that communication doesn't necessarily = vocalized message sent, vocalized message received, and vocalized message acted upon verbally could also be a helpful step in recognizing verbal pressure as unnecessary and it could 'validate' his sendings...that validation, the recognition by others, that a message has been sent is so crucial to 'non-verbals'.

Claudia, after all is said and done - and you don't want or are unable to learn and do whatever it takes to communicate in formats that are satisfactory to you both...if you (or any other parent struggling with this) decide to stick with an oral-only/verbal-only teaching technique, then please come to accept that even 'echoic' verbalizations (as you referenced in your posting) can - and should - be counted as 'progress' AND as 'success' ('success' connotes a goal as having been reached, yes?). The efforts put forth by 'non-verbals' to communicate in a format that's not conducive (and might never be) to their communicative 'proclivities' are staggering. I know this from vicarious as well as personal experience. Parenting/turning out an individual 'well-versed' in verbalizing is already quite an achievement. Turning out someone who started out with an Autistic 'handicap' (as defined by NT terms) and who became well-versed in verbalizing is also 'staggering'; an amazing accomplishment that doesn't happen or might not be recognized very often at all in our world, given the artificialities slanted against it. It's up to you (and those who work/will work further with your child) to re-vamp/re-tune/refine what constitutes goals and successes.

I wish you 'luck' in this process with your son. Please let me know if you'd like to 'hear' any more from me.

Zen wrote: This thread has got me excited, because no one in my life ever understands that written language is totally different from spoken language! And so I might communicate with someone via email who will then decide that it would "be easier" to give me a call on the phone. The problem is that though I may be able to fake my way through that verbal conversation, hardly any of it will register in my brain. Whereas, had they just written what they said in an email, it would have. Written language (for me) is very much visual and logical. I often find that I don't have a verbal equivalent of certain written words, because I don't read them as spoken words; I read them as images/symbols. So I might know and understand a certain word thoroughly in its written form but not recognize it at all in its spoken form.

I get this, too! I'll be busy thinking 'oh, we've got such a rapport going on' and then they say 'call me'. Well, crap.

I very much like what you wrote about knowing/understanding words if written, but not if they're spoken. It reminds me very much of the time I spent down in Mexico, doing some English tutoring (among other things). I couldn't tell you how many people I encountered who could 'read' English but had no idea of how to 'speak' it. It really seemed to be an occurrence that went beyond mere pronounciation issues. Plus, those who could 'read' English but not speak it, were the absolutely hardest 'clients' to work with in terms of 'teaching' them verbal English. It was almost like they had cross-referenced their Spanish pronounciation 'rules' (of which there are very few, unlike English) into their verbal English attempts - to the point of hard-wiring it all! I basically had to perform as an amateur speech therapist and break down the physical movements (1. first, place your lips and tongue in these positions, 2. exhale somewhat strongly through your mouth, not your nose, 3. start the vocalization and then bring your tongue back from your teeth...there, you've just pronounced 'th'. Now we'll work on the letter 'z'...).

Those who're verbal-oriented would feel justified in saying the above 'clients' don't 'know' English. As a written-oriented person, I would say they do know English. How would we decide who's right!? And, then, based off the decision of they do/don't know the required language, further decisions are made impacting the do-know's/don't-knows...If one isn't verbal-languaged, then one gets shunned, disrespected, devalued, on and on. I guess one of my main questions is how did we as a society come to a point where 'non-verbals' (though communicative) can be 'thrown away' in the ways we are? How did the talkie-talks become such a domineering force?

Anyway, I'm so glad to 'hear' from others 'like me'. Please keep posting. I look forward to reading you most every day now...

fascinating thread.

i'm talkative (with single people i trust) but i have an acute awareness of how far my spoken expression is from my thoughts, which are hyper-swift & rather convoluted besides.

at one time i was quite a letter-writer (though not up to HPL production-levels). i would say this was the best writing i've ever done.

my heretical position is that writing is "purer" than speaking because it tends to avoid the phatic (social-grooming) function more, & thus deals mainly with intended meanings.

but the things that can be expressed, even in writing, seem to me sometimes extremely limited.

i wonder if non-verbal people ever feel this way?

Hey graywyvern; Yes. Writing has its limitations, too, as a communicative device. ...Telepathy would be awesome!