the old empathy question/Baren Cohen

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I think the messages in this topic are some of the most interesting and inciteful I've read since joining this excellent forum. Lack of empathy is my weak area. I identify with pretty much everything that has been written. I offer one new idea to this discussion. I've often puzzled over why I cry sometimes when listening to certain sad songs or certain scenes in movies (e.g. when the people go back to sleep in the film "Awakenings", or when the Elephant Man wants to sleep like a normal man and dies). Only recently have I realised that these powerful expressions of emotion are not indicators of empathy for the person in the film, but some unconscious recognition that this situation describes something that I can identify with or describes a deep desire that is as yet unfulfilled.

I've also become aware that I cannot visualise friends or family in my mind's eye (and most other people can). I think that this must affect my ability to be empathetic. I've learnt to show that I care for friends and family with what I say and how I act. I'll send a get well card if someone is sick. I'll think really hard how best to respond when I'm with someone who is clearly upset. I'm come to accept that perhaps this is the limit of my ability to imitate what it means to have empathy.

That's kind of how empathy works. The situation in the film is supposed to be an analogy to feelings that we all have at times, even NTs. So the films were very effective at reaching you. My guess is the times you don't feel the empathy is because it was something that's just not familiar to you and not expressed with as much meladrama. NTs will likely pick up on subtle expressions of emotions and be able to relate to it. As an AS, you might need really melodramatic expressions of someone's feelings (like in movies) to be able to pick up on it because our senses are dulled in that area-- our senses; not our feelings. A lot of people are trying to maintain their composure at hospitals and funerals and such, and just don't express themselves that overtly. Also, really dramatic music is not playing to clue you in to what others are feeling.

OMG! An old friend started emailing me again lately. Yesterday he sent me an email saying that he can't see me at my friend's party today because his sister ran away from home and he has to go see his family to deal with the drama. I just wrote back and said "Don't worry about it. Just call me later." Didn't say a word about his sister. Hardly noticed the reason he gave; just that he can't come.

Then today he wrote me with a subject that just says "Rest in Peace Lola" and is full of pics of his grandmother. I was confused and wrote back. "Did your grandmother just pass? Are you ok?" and he wrote me back and said it was two years since her death and he was just remembering her since she took care of his sister who ran away. It's like he was trying again to get through to me.

I wrote back and said "I hope your sister is ok. Let me know how it goes." Do you think it came across very badly that I didn't really offer any condolences the first time and that's why he wrote again? Did I write enough the 2nd time?

I definitely have empathy, but when you were told growing up that it's not ok to cry, it's easy to be accused of not having empathy. One example was when my brother was in a bad accident and in a coma, I got nasty looks when I got all emotional going in the hospital room.

I have caught the giggles at a funeral, but it was because I thought of something funny the person said shortly before his untimely death. Fortunately for me, I didn't have to stifle the laughter for long as someone giving the eulogy said something funny.

One thing I do sometimes is click "send" on an e-mail when I really shouldn't have.

Dalebert,
Maybe you're lucky and your friend understood "Don't worry about it" as "don't worry, she'll come back soon". The other two e-mails seemed just about as good as emailed condolences can be; at least I couldn't think of anything better to say (although that doesn't mean much, I suck at that).
Besides, he's probably too worried about his sister to care who wrote the longest email. And that "Rest in Peace Lola" thing seemed totally inappropiate to send to non-family.

I agree. That was weird.

Oy, my emotions are so completely jacked.

My grandmother's funeral, I felt nothing. Grandfather's, same, although I pretended to cry for my mother's benefit when I found out that he'd died. (Mind you, I was young at the time. Maybe 10 or 12.) A homeless guy needing money when I don't have it, and I feel like my heart's been ripped out of my bloody chest.

Honestly... what is THAT?

There is definitely some truth, for me, in the theory about shutting things off after a certain point. I felt more when I had a fight with my girlfriend of one week than I did ending a two-year relationship. I'd long since shut things off, there.

Crying is weird for me. Kind of like flying, or something. I don't completely believe that I can, and if I think, "I should be crying right now," I physically can't. But once in a while, the floodgates open. Usually when someone's mad at me and I feel threatened.

Animals, too, I can usually feel things about. But if I hear that someone's died horribly someone, like on the news, if I didn't know them, I don't care. I really don't.

There's no rhyme or reason to it, that I can see.

About not crying about your gran's death... did you feel anything at all, and couldn't express it? Or did you just not feel anything?
Because my mom told me this morning that her godfather/uncle (my great-uncle) had died, and I felt nothing at all. It might just be that I wasn't close to him. These past years lots of relatives have been dying and I felt nothing.

Maybe it has something to do with not being able to picture it. A homeless person/animal is very graphic.

this is peculiar a relative of mine shes 6 has been diagnosed with autism, she was watching a show on tv (the X factor UK singing contest) she was inconsolable because this guy did not get through the competition and was upset she identified with him its unbelievable its on tv she felt an emotional connection with him?

I felt that too, the few times I watched whows of the sort! They're so sad! I also find other shows sad when others find them funny (no one will know this, except maybe a few other Latins, but El Chavo del 8 is one).

That's really interesting what you write about not feeling empathy, because it's a situation I'm not familiar with. I too have felt guilty about not feeling anything at funerals of family members. More recently I have been trying to be sympathetic to an NT friend who lost her baby 3 months after conception. I know that this woman's main goal in life is to be a mother (she's 40 years old), and repeated miscarriages have led to deep depression (an understandable consequence). Obviously this is a situation that I'll never experience, and cannot imagine, and again I feel guilty for not feeling empathy. But I did think of her and feel something weeks later when I was singing a song in a group (I sing in a local choir.). Something in the words we were singing must have helped me to 'connect' to this woman's desperate situation and I choked for a second or two. It's almost as if music sometimes acts as a way for me to connect thought to feelings. I would really like to have more of these special moments. I must think more about your comment that I might need really melodramatic expressions of someone's feelings to connect to my emotions and express some empathy. The film that will always, always make me cry is the last few minutes of "Love Story". You cannot get more melodramatic than those scenes!

As a psychology student I may be able to offer some insights. First of all the word "empathy" means many things and in fact one of the problems with psychology is that in language we use one word to mean different things and then assume that because they have the same word they are the same thing.

Anyway, in the context of 'theory of mind', empathy means the *intuitive* ability to put yourselves in the place of another, to feel how another feels; hence an NT on meeting another NT can observe their verbal and non-verbal cues and will feel how they feel, then based on their knowledge of this feeling that can infer the mental state of the other. This process is very efficient; hence NTs can communicate easily and effectively. This ability to intuitively empathise is called having a "Theory of Mind".

For us, we do not experience the emotions of another in the same why, what we do is look at what they are saying, their tone of voice, non-verbal cues and then (unconsciously) search our memory for similar situations where someone has these verbal and nonverbal cues. This is not very efficient, though may explain why these we are good at these sought of skills as we have had to do this for successful social interaction.

Note that there is a theory of mind from the psychoanalytical perspective and the evolutionary perspective. These are both different phenomena.

The former relates to an infant realising they are no longer omnipitent and do not have autocratic control over their primary carer.

****This has nothing whatsoever to do with autism****

The latter relates to the ability of humans and non-human animals to empathise with another and this is the theory of mind that Simon Baron-Cohen is referring to.

Hope this helps.

Thanks for the clarification, Chunkymicken!
Knowing the definition helps me to understand empathy better.

chunkymicken.....I am a bit slow,evidently....I still dont get it


I thought that "theory of mind" was .....Assuming the "other" is the same as you?to give an example of what I keep getting hung up on and why I thought AS does not fit me because I have "empathy"..

When I am working with a disabled and nonverbal client...I assume I am them,I automatically "feel" I am them (it is without conciouse thought)If a staff leaves them in a shower chair without a towel over them...I feel cold and I am very angry at the staff...the client does not need to be exhibiting anysighns of destress...I feel it.....this happens constantly at work(lazy,thoughtless staff there)and is causeing me very real stress,anger and frustration......When I see a dead squeril in the road I "feel" their panic and pain...I see it and feel it.....when I see the bombings in Iraq....I feel like I am there,confussed,scared,angry at the loss of a family member...their daily losses are more painful to me then when I hear about the loss of life on 9-11...(I think it is horrible,what the people there suffered )but it was less intense then having your country carpet bombed,losing electricity,clean water,family house and income,stability,loved ones,daily terror and knowing you are innoscent...
I dont want to turn this into debate of the war...PLEASE....point being....I dont only "feel" for someone in "My" group.....the pain is based on how intense the suffering is and not who it is....This kind of "empathy" comes automatically and is not intellectual....it is more intense and easier then when
a family member dies(no feeling unless they sufferd in death or I will miss their prescence in my life(selfish)When one of my clients died....I missed his "personality" but also felt some relief because he made my job more stresful(I do feel guilty about this but its the truth....I felt more sadness for his mother who I really liked and know was torn apart with the lose)...

So what is this....is it Empathy or "lack of theory of mind"?

I forget what its called but what your describing is literally imagining yourself in another persons position. Even though it may come naturally its still different from theory of mind which is what (for example) causes a person to cry when they see someone else crying even though they may have no idea whats going on.

I believe Baron Cohen was the one to have used a particular test with autistic individuals. It was a test where there was something under a basket. I'm not exactly sure as to how the test actually goes, but it ends up with the person picking the wrong basket. The explanation is that the person didn't see the person change the item into another basket. Because of this, the person was expected to have only saw it from his own perspective, disregarding what others were doing around him.

I was never given this test, and I have no idea if I would have passed it as a child. Now, I believe I would pass such a test. I do not have any idea as to the accuracy of this test in determining autism or aspergers.

- Ray M -