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ediself
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26 Oct 2011, 9:54 am

btbnnyr wrote:
Considering how important this "autistic aloneness" is, it's surprising that it hasn't made its way into all the books about autism.

When I was a kid, I was a classic example of the autistic child who was completely socially aloof and completely ignored people, so I'll try to explain what it was like for the OP.

The outwards behavior was that I appeared to be in my own world and took no notice of others. People called my name, and I didn't answer. It was like they were not there. I displayed no reaction whatsoever. People spoke to me, and I didn't speak back, even to questions addressed to me. Again like they were not there. I didn't look at them either. No acknowledgment of their presence. But if they gave me explicit directions to do something, e.g. tuck my shirt into my pants, I could do it, but did not give any indication that I was going to comply before complying. I never initiated any communications with anyone. I never greeted my parents when they appeared in the room. When I was a baby, I never responded to my parents playing with me over my crib.

On the inside, what it felt like was this: There was no difference between people and objects in my mind, and I didn't know that there was such a thing as communication. When people called my name, I heard my name, and that was it. It was like I had heard a car passing on the street. End processing. There was no social meaning to the sound of my name. The idea of responding didn't occur to me, and the sound of my name meant nothing beyond the sound itself. Same for when people spoke to me about anything. The idea of responding didn't occur to me, but if they said to do something that I knew how to do from connecting the action with the sound of the words to do the action, then I could do it, no problem. My mother always used the same words when she told me to do each thing, so I could do what she wanted just fine. The teachers at preschool and school sometimes used different words, so that was sometimes a problem for me, and I just gave the appearance of not hearing them at all.

So this whole time that I was effectively alone in my own world, was I struggling to communicate? Did I feel locked-in? Did I suffer from being so alone? No, not at all. Because I had no idea what communication was. How I could miss something that I didn't know existed? Everything was great, and I had a very happy childhood. I did my few activities alone and hyperfocused. I felt happy to be living almost entirely in my own mind, with brief forays into the external world to have my physical needs taken care of. I had bad motor skills as a kid, so my parents didn't expect me to do much physical stuff. They didn't want me to, for fear of accidents. I was totally happy in my own internal world. In my mind, everything was great. I was learning a lot from my reading and drawing and block-stacking and lining stuff up. I taught myself arithmetic before age three from arranging piles of dirt into patterns. There was no need at all to connect with another person, and I was not aware that such a need existed.

As a child, I was alone and happy. On the outside, I appeared to be "locked-in", a description that could not be farther from the truth. On the inside, that was the best time in my life, before the 8-10 age range when I started to take notice of people, because I was totally free from what I now call the "social prison". If given a choice between being "locked-in" to myself or being "locked-in" to the social prison, then I would definitely choose freedom.

Sorry this post is kind of incoherent. I just blabbed it here, without really organizing my thoughts on the topic.


No this post is really interesting, in my opinion. I can't say I felt exactly the same way you did but the way you expressed it triggered a lot of nostalgia in me. I felt a tiny bit differently, I remember that "hearing my name" thing, but in my head, even though I wasn't turning my eyes to the person's face or indicating in any way that I had heard them, I remember holding the sound in my head, ready to hear what would follow. Sometimes nothing followed, the person kept saying my name (probably waiting for me to look at them, i now realize of course) and I stopped holding on to the sound, thinking "it was nothing". Like someone had said my name by accident or something. I remember when people said an actual sentence to me, responding in my head or, more exactly, thinking about it. "go put this in your bedroom": -" well, so where exactly would it go, wait what does she mean, what am I supposed to take then? " and if I had no idea of the steps necessary , I would just do nothing at all and go back to more important things. Like my book.
I wasn't ever sad at the time, I became sad when , around the same age as you, I started trying to interact and make friends, because it seemed like it was expected of me. But before 7 or 8 years ol, I don't remember ever being sad, i remember the warmth of my blanket, the life and laughter in the books I used to read, I felt safe.



Kiseki
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26 Oct 2011, 11:26 am

mori_pastel wrote:
I'm a relatively socially withdrawn person. I have been since I was a kid. I wasn't as bad as say Temple Grandin, but I was always more interested in books than people. (I was a hyperlexic little kid.) I look back at my childhood and, excusing the one friend I had at the time, I don't really remember even talking to other people. All I remember is constantly reading. I even read while walking down the halls. I couldn't stop reading, which frequently got me into trouble.

As an adult, it almost resembles avoidant personality disorder. I have trouble seeing relationships as being worth what it takes for me to maintain them and frankly find the idea of forming more than the most casual of friendships to be intimidating. I don't really want the demands people place on me because I don't seem to get as much as others do out of relationships. About one real friendship at a time is all I can handle and about all I ever had. It's been a trouble lately because I've gone a couple of years now without an actual friend and now I'm in a position where I'm making friends again. It causes me some anxiety because while I can convince myself that having friends is necessary and even good, I can't help but feel like it's going to be more stress than it's worth.


I feel, more or less, the same. But my main problem with friendships is that I just don't connect deeply with others. I like to have a few, good friends (and I already do) so I don't bother to make new ones. Besides that it takes SO much effort to make and keep friends, and most people just seem to want casual drinking buddy-type friendships, so why bother?

Like OP I also prefer reading or listening to music or watching movies than hanging out with folks. I wasn't made to be social and extroverted. People get very confused by me however because, when I do go out, I am very sociable and fun and charismatic. They expect that I'm the life of the party and have loads of friends. But, in actuality, I'm just there entertaining them and myself and it all ends when I go home.


_________________
Your Aspie score: 161 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 55 of 200
You are very likely an Aspie


btbnnyr
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26 Oct 2011, 2:39 pm

Powerwindow wrote:
Thanks. That was usefull. A very good description of what happens.

So would you then say the lack of responsiveness is another part than social indifference or is it a result of not seeing the point of communicating?

But how about now? Have you grown partly out of it?


So I think that the lack of responsiveness is due to the lack of a natural instinct to communicate and socialize and tune into people and social-emotional information in preference to the physical environment. That's what NT children do from infancy. They have that wiring at birth, and that wiring makes them ready to develop more of that wiring to learn language and non-verbal cues and theory of mind and social skills, etc.

In my case, I had no idea what communication was. It was not that I didn't see the point of communicating, but that the very concept of communication didn't exist in my mind. Human speech was just noises that were no different from noises caused by objects in the physical environment. Human gestures were just movements no different from leaves blowing in the wind. Actually, leaves blowing in the wind were more stimulating and interesting, because there is a visual and auditory rhythm to that. Rhythm is something that attracts all human brains, especially the autistic brain.

So the way that I grew out of that severely autistic childhood was through one specific thing, I think. Around age 8, I started to learn a second language, even though I was not exactly a master of the first. Certainly not spoken. My speech was very sparse and echolalic. But learning a second language seemed to give my brain a big push towards developing communication and socialization functions, starting from taking notice of people to understanding what they were saying to recognizing their faces to understanding their gestures, etc. When you learn your first language, you just pick it up from people around you. When you learn your second language, it's explicitly taught to you in the form of vocabulary words and grammatical constructions. You learn it using a systematic approach. There are pictures to connect with the words, and there are rules for putting the words together. Sounds like a perfect way for autistic children to learn language. I was thinking that maybe autistic children should be taught their first language like one would teach a normal child their second language. Otherwise, the speech is just noises, and very uninteresting ones. This way, the speech has meaning, and once the speech has meaning, the gestures have meaning, and once the speech and gestures have meaning, you can put them together to find out that people are communicating with you, and you should use the same to communicate with them. At this point, you have the basics of communication, but of course, not much reading between the lines or getting social cues like NTs do, not even in adulthood.



btbnnyr
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26 Oct 2011, 2:47 pm

ediself wrote:
No this post is really interesting, in my opinion. I can't say I felt exactly the same way you did but the way you expressed it triggered a lot of nostalgia in me. I felt a tiny bit differently, I remember that "hearing my name" thing, but in my head, even though I wasn't turning my eyes to the person's face or indicating in any way that I had heard them, I remember holding the sound in my head, ready to hear what would follow. Sometimes nothing followed, the person kept saying my name (probably waiting for me to look at them, i now realize of course) and I stopped holding on to the sound, thinking "it was nothing". Like someone had said my name by accident or something. I remember when people said an actual sentence to me, responding in my head or, more exactly, thinking about it. "go put this in your bedroom": -" well, so where exactly would it go, wait what does she mean, what am I supposed to take then? " and if I had no idea of the steps necessary , I would just do nothing at all and go back to more important things. Like my book.
I wasn't ever sad at the time, I became sad when , around the same age as you, I started trying to interact and make friends, because it seemed like it was expected of me. But before 7 or 8 years ol, I don't remember ever being sad, i remember the warmth of my blanket, the life and laughter in the books I used to read, I felt safe.


Yeah, I sometimes long for the days of my warm safe autistic childhood. I don't think I would have minded being a severely autistic adult, if I had never developed any additional social functioning beyond my 8-year-old level.



TPE2
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26 Oct 2011, 5:00 pm

Probably the problem is that most work on "modern" autism is about the social impairments in autism. The lack of interest in socializing is relatively uninteresting for researchers, specially after the psychoanalytical theories about autism ("the autistic refugees in his own world because his mother did not love him") have been abandoned.

In other words, writing about the "lack of desire of socialize" instead about the "difficulties that the autistic have when he tries to socialize" sounds much as "subjectivism"/"soft-science psychology".

If you research about books about this topic, you will find much:

a) outdated psychodynamic theories about autism, like refrigerator mother;

and/or

b) even more outdated literature of the first half of 20th century, where the word "autism" is used with the meaning of "negative symptoms of schizophrenia".



btbnnyr
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26 Oct 2011, 5:44 pm

TPE2 wrote:
Probably the problem is that most work on "modern" autism is about the social impairments in autism. The lack of interest in socializing is relatively uninteresting for researchers, specially after the psychoanalytical theories about autism ("the autistic refugees in his own world because his mother did not love him") have been abandoned.

In other words, writing about the "lack of desire of socialize" instead about the "difficulties that the autistic have when he tries to socialize" sounds much as "subjectivism"/"soft-science psychology".

If you research about books about this topic, you will find much:

a) outdated psychodynamic theories about autism, like refrigerator mother;

and/or

b) even more outdated literature of the first half of 20th century, where the word "autism" is used with the meaning of "negative symptoms of schizophrenia".


This is why I have a problem with the lack of awareness of the concept of the socialization being described as "withdrawal" in the first place, like Eugen Bleuler described when he neologued "autism". There was no withdrawing from anything. You were never there to withdraw.