Written vs. Verbal communication.

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How uncanny! I just made a VERY similar thread but seconds ago (Subject: Information Overload)! Unfortunately, I did not see this thread before posting otherwise I never would have posted...but I suppose great minds think alike .

To answer your query Mr. Xxx, this is a massive problem for me. Given the environment I work in (office), I am frequently given instructions orally, and I am convinced that I have nearly been fired several times over misunderstandings. I never realized that there was such a term as "snowed"...should make for some interesting reading.

@ AdamDZ:

I have never seen my "condition" summarised so accurately! I have been referred to as stupid, disengaged, etc. even though I am nowhere near any of these.

I have ADD and this is a huge factor for me as well. I don't think fast on my feet. I tend to have that delayed reaction where hours later I realize, "DOH! I should have said _____!"

I find it easier to "speak" in writing, and I still tend to take a long time to write out my thoughts.

*Well now on second thought, there are times when I get the urge to say something and the words just come tumbling out of my mouth almost like I had prepared a speech.

Do you get the feeling with ADD like you only have two operating speeds...one is super slow, and the other is really really really fast?

Depends on what you mean. I don't think so. I'm more like a heavily loaded freight train that can stop on a dime. It takes me a long time to get up to speed. By the end of each day, my brain is going so fast it starts to feel like sparks and short circuits are happening, at which point I know it's about to just quit for the day. That's mental activity though. The cognitive side of things. That part, I think is a combination of Autism and ADD kind of fighting with each other.

Organizationally, everything I do is chaotic. As a result, even once I get mental speed up, it still takes me forever to accomplish anything of worth. Accomplishment-wise, I have two speeds. Granny-low and dead stop. I think that's pretty ADD.

Oh wow...I never thought of it that way. A heavily loaded freight train...that's an awesome way to describe it! I love trains. Well yeah I'm really slow to get up to speed. But for me, some days it just doesn't happen and I stay in slow motion. When I do build up momentum, I have trouble stopping, I don't want the day to be over. Feeling overwhelmed can put me back down in low gear.

I'm getting a little bit off topic here, but this is worth mentioning. I think.

The only thing I would add, because I don't think it really came across, is what I mean by "can stop on a dime." By that I do not mean that I can stop it. I mean that it just DOES stop, and it stops very suddenly. Normaly, this happens anywhere from late afternoon to late evening, but there are some times that it either takes until early morning, or just won't stop at all. Last couple of days has been that way actually. When it just won't stop, I have to make a conscious decision to just quit and go to bed. Almost always, soon after, I'm out like a light.

After attempt #5 of trying to contribute to this conversation, I am ready to give up. One last try:

I feel that I am far more lucid at getting my point across in writing, but I hear the other side's point better in person. I can't do either on the phone. Getting my point across better isn't very helpful. Usually I just burn my bridges rather thoroughly in writing, I always put in too much information, too much honesty, and irrevocably offend the other party. In writing, I lose as much to over analyzing grammar as I lose in person to missed body language and vague intimations.

I can't assert myself enough to be heard at all in person. I only hear fragments of what the other side is saying. I have a much less complete impression of what was talked about. I am more stressed out by the uncertainties of what the other person was trying to imply, but couldn't/wouldn't say outright. But usually the face-to-faces have better results at having us resolve our differences. There is less nit picking over details. Much more "laying it all on the table" and accepting each other's differences.

So long story short, despite it's failings, I think face to face is better for resolving differences, but writing is better for understanding differences.

I guess I have also given up on taking offence at being deceived by evasive or intentionally inaccurate conversation. Maybe I'm just jaded to the point where I assume that lying is standard operating procedure for human interaction. I don't find that to be more prevalent in either person or writing. I feel like detecting the deception doesn't helps the situation very often. Quite the reverse, really. Humans seem to lie to themselves fairly often, to preserve their own sanity.

Ooops sorry if I am taking the thread off track but thank you for clarifying that.

Just keep in mind that I'm using the term "snowed" unconventionally. The idiom actually refers only to deliberate deception (something I admit I didn't know before I looked it up today ~ I didn't ever think before that intention mattered), but I am using it to refer to deliberate deception AND non deliberate misunderstandings and forgetfulness. The end results of either are very similar in that I end up getting things wrong, or not retaining things I should. The end results are so similar, sometimes I suspect I have REALLY BEEN snowed (deception), but I'm never really certain that's what it was.

Come to think of it, not knowing the difference makes me feel vulnerable. Oh man I HATE that word. I can't STAND to even think of myself that way, but there it is. Anyway, if things are in writing, I not only don't FEEL as vulnerable, I actually am not. The written word affords me far more power.

I guess it's true what they say. The pen really IS mightier than the sword!

EDIT: @ dianthus: NP, it's related.

Maybe that's why I'm ok with being deceived face to face and only realizing it years later. I have grown to be OK with being vulnerable as I have aged. These days I'd rather resolve an issue and come to common ground or a compromise than "win" an argument. Have to make yourself a little vulnerable now and again to admit that you have feelings that can be hurt, or that you can be wrong (sometimes.) <- those two things help a lot with conflict resolution.

Interesting. And I do NOT mean "interesting," as in "BS." (There was a recent thread somewhere here listing NT codes. One user listed "Interesting = BS" or something close to that.) When I use the term interesting, I really do mean that what I've just read is INTERESTING.

Burnbridge, you made some AWSOME points there. I agree that you sound pretty jaded. I don't agree anymore that lying is standard operating procedure, though I used to. On a quick side note, I've noticed over time that if I'm able to see user's ages, I see a lot of myself in younger users, when I was about the same age. I don't feel that way anymore mainly because I've come to learn that a great deal of what I used to think was dishonesty and deliberate deception, has actually been pure misunderstandings. Autistics aren't the only ones that get things screwed up.



I totally understand. Been there, done that. To go back to my side point earlier, I had the same problem years ago, even with writing. I personally don't have as much of a problem in that area anymore because of three things that also apply to the next quote:



The three words are: Practice, Practice, and (you guessed it), Practice. A lot of practice at it, and learning from failures by adjusting what I did to cause the failures, reduced the amount of failures over time. As far as the analyzation of grammar, the more I write, the more I get better at both the grammar and the concern over "proper" grammar. I've found that proper grammar, as long as it isn't horrendous grammar, isn't as important as clarity. Clarity can be accomplished even with slightly improper grammar and even with spilling mistakes. (purposeful in this case)

I don't know if you agree with this, but IMHO, the whole POINT of writing is to get a point across (the point of the author). I don't think it's as important that we're concerned with getting our point across as it is important HOW we get our point across. It is possible to come across too "matter-of-factly" (made up word there), but it is also possible to be so concerned with coming across that way that we end up being too apologetic, which can appear "waffely" (another made up word). I have learned to just say what I need to say, as quickly as possible (which I'm not doing very well with at this moment because it's after one in the morning and I'm exhausted), and if I'm not sure of how well I've said it, save it until I have time to edit. A lot depends on the level of the topic's importance. Less critical things I'll just fire off no matter how long it is, or how many redundancies I think the writing may contain. (This post being one of many exceptions )

All of that comes from practice, practice, practice.

In short (yeah I know it's too late for that, but here's the summary), I totally understand where you're coming from in all respects, but I do think practice can help improve all of it. I still have trouble with the verbal/in person part, and I do have a couple of brief comments about that.

I used to think in person worked better for all of the detailed reasons you gave. It's quicker, and does seem to work better for resolving differences. What I've discovered recently though, is that a lot of the situations I used to think were "resolved," really weren't resolved at all. Keep in mind that this is only my own experience. I've only just begun to realize that a lot of the situations from the past that I THOUGHT were resolved, were not really resolved. There were a few different things that were happening that I thought were "resolutions."

1 - I came away thinking I understood what happened, what was said, and what was agreed upon, only to discover in the end, no change actually happened.
2 - I came away thinking I understood all the above, only to discover changes that were made were totally different from what I had expected.
3 - Same as above, but some changes were what I expected, others were not.
4- (This is a rare one) - Everything changed as expected - Very rare indeed!

In some cases face to face meetings do work better. It does depend on the importance level of what's being dealt with, and the life span of the issue. Short term issues are best dealt with in person. A silly and extreme example of this might be a meeting to determine what is acceptable attire at work for "casual Fridays." If you get it wrong, you'll only get it wrong for one day. Somebody will speak to you, clarify the rules, and you'll be set to go for next Friday.

The catalyst for this thread though, was communication between me and school staff regarding our children's IEP's. That issue is has a life long effect on my kids. There are other issues just as important and with just as long lasting "life spans." If I were better at reading people, F2F meetings would be fine. But I'm terrible at it. Getting it all in writing absolutely MUST happen for a couple of pretty simple reasons.

1- If a misunderstanding does happen, there's a written record to refer to. In F2F meetings, there is only memory to refer to, and I'm automatically disadvantaged.
2 - It's too damned easy, if there are unscrupulous people involved, for said people to deny they said things they actually said. This is a problem even if ALL the participants involved are have no Autism or ADD.

I totally agree that in MOST cases, this is true. Most of the time, common ground IS the best ideal. There are situations though, where you THINK common ground is repeatedly being agreed on, but you keep discovering that's not what's been happening. That you haven't actually been getting anything you've been asking for. I am NOT okay with that kind of deceit in the current situations I am dealing with. In some cases I am "realizing it years later," but the consequences are still being paid TODAY, by me and my kids. That's pertinent to one particular situation. There are others that have affected me personally for decades. It's one thing to let things roll off if I only realize them years later, IF they didn't have a lasting affect. It's quite another to realize that some of the things I need to deal with involving communication with others NOW, will have a lasting affect as long as the rest of my life. It is not acceptable to allow misunderstandings that will affect me for that long in a detrimental way.


EDIT: Anyway Burnbridge, you've made a lot of good points. They are though, kind of off topic. If we could get back to the point of this thread, which was how much of this need might be Autism, or how much might be ADD based, I'd appreciate it.Thanks.