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Male/Female Aspie Ratio Misjudged?

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socalaspie
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04 Dec 2011, 1:25 pm

dalurker wrote:
What if the high male to female ratio is actually accurate? Why list all these reasons the ratio is supposed to be wrong, when they just support the idea that less females have AS, based on gender differences? If these hypothetical undetected AS females are aspies, they aren't diagnosable with their lack of clinical significance.

If nobody knows or cares what to look for then how can they be diagnosed?


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socalaspie
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04 Dec 2011, 1:29 pm

SylviaLynn wrote:
Yeah, crying babies and fighting children. Eek! There's the extreme amount of energy it takes to just get through the day appearing normal socially.

That's another thing. Females with AS tend to have a greatly reduced interest in having children. Either they perceive that having kids would completely overwhelm them (which it probably would), or they simply don't understand why someone would want children in the first place. Male Aspies are often the same but a guy who has no paternal instincts doesn't attract as much attention as a woman with little or no desire to be a mother, but very few people connect the dots that there is a neurobiological reason to this nonetheless.

One other thing--female ASD members oftentimes are obsessed with the fantasy genre of literature and movies and immerse themselves in it. I don't see it as often in male Aspies. This is more apt to get overlooked by society also.


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socalaspie
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04 Dec 2011, 1:37 pm

Ganondox wrote:
Wait, but isn't literal speech supposed to be an aspie trait? It seems that everything is both a trait and not a trait, I'm confused.

I thought that is on the receiving end, i.e. we take stuff literally. I think Aspies, particularly female ones who tend to be more strongly developed in language and speech than males, use lots of metaphor, simile, etc. in conversation simply because we master language very well and have a great capacity for imitation. You know the whole "little professor" thing. If somebody constantly talks like a professor or professional writer just in daily chitchat, and it's clear that they are not trying to impress or BS you, that to me is a real smoking gun for belonging to the spectrum, and this I think is more noticeable in women.


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04 Dec 2011, 1:57 pm

socalaspie wrote:
Ganondox wrote:
Wait, but isn't literal speech supposed to be an aspie trait? It seems that everything is both a trait and not a trait, I'm confused.

I thought that is on the receiving end, i.e. we take stuff literally. I think Aspies, particularly female ones who tend to be more strongly developed in language and speech than males, use lots of metaphor, simile, etc. in conversation simply because we master language very well and have a great capacity for imitation. You know the whole "little professor" thing. If somebody constantly talks like a professor or professional writer just in daily chitchat, and it's clear that they are not trying to impress or BS you, that to me is a real smoking gun for belonging to the spectrum, and this I think is more noticeable in women.


Well this makes a lot of sense! I was confused about this too because I keep reading that Aspies don't understand metaphors. I was thinking, well maybe I can't have AS because I love metaphors, also innuendo, double entendres, etc. I could practically have an entire conversation in them.

Yes I agree it is different on the receiving end. Like I don't always get it when people are just kidding with me, or being facetious, I take it very literally. But once I catch on to that I can respond in the same style.



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04 Dec 2011, 4:36 pm

socalaspie wrote:
SylviaLynn wrote:
Yeah, crying babies and fighting children. Eek! There's the extreme amount of energy it takes to just get through the day appearing normal socially.

That's another thing. Females with AS tend to have a greatly reduced interest in having children. Either they perceive that having kids would completely overwhelm them (which it probably would), or they simply don't understand why someone would want children in the first place. Male Aspies are often the same but a guy who has no paternal instincts doesn't attract as much attention as a woman with little or no desire to be a mother, but very few people connect the dots that there is a neurobiological reason to this nonetheless.

One other thing--female ASD members oftentimes are obsessed with the fantasy genre of literature and movies and immerse themselves in it. I don't see it as often in male Aspies. This is more apt to get overlooked by society also.


I immerse myself in fantasy, but I'm male. I guess I must actually be a female aspie.

Also I want children, but not so much for the sake of having children as for preserving my genetic line, it must not be quelched that easily.


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04 Dec 2011, 6:18 pm

Ganondox wrote:
Also, one aspie quiz, not sure which one, showed that males and females where equally likely to be in the Aspie zone, but diagnosed females scored higher than diagnosed males on average, definitely supporting that that the ratio isn't as unbalanced as its believed to be and that girls are under diagnosed.


Well in the study they were taking diagnosed females. Heres the factor of many females being undiagnosed. The milder ones, are less likely to be caught or there caught at a much later age. Where as the milder males perhaps dont develop as much coping methods and camoflaguing techniques. The milder females tend to develop that. Thats my hypothesis. It doesnt mean the female aspies are any more severe or milder the the males.


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04 Dec 2011, 10:11 pm

I think a lot of it is based on very outdated gender stereotypes, from when men worked in the factories, and women were either homemakers, teachers, secretaries, or nurses. But these days, women are more independent, with careers of their own, and taking more initiative in their own lives. They are not as passive as they were in the 1950s and earlier, and while men are still expected to make the first move when it comes to dating, women are doing that more and more these days. The notion that women just have to "sit around and look pretty" to attract a date is becoming a thing of the past.

I think this could be the reason why female ASD people are misdiagnosed more than the guys.



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04 Dec 2011, 10:46 pm

socalaspie wrote:
Dillogic wrote:
You could use the autism diagnosis ratio of 4/5 to 1 for Asperger's if they're the same thing other than severity, and they say autism is rarely missed. I suppose that it's possible females with autism might be misdiagnosed with just MR or PDD-NOS.

The large ratios of AS that they question are actually like 15 to 1, not 4 to 1.

4:1 is absurd and even 2:1 is pushing it in my mind. It wouldn't be surprised if conventional autism gets missed or misdiagnosed in females more also like you said but the great majority of the people I am referring to are Aspies or HFAs. In the two years I have been living on my own I have met three females with AS (likely four but I didn't spend enough time with one to make a good judgment) and two males at most.


I don't know what the actual ratios are, but I do know a few things:

* Tony Attwood says his adult diagnosis rate is close to 1:1
* Girls who present with symptoms of autism and ADHD are not taken seriously by a lot of medical professionals
* As you look at more and more severe presentations of autism, the more the ratio shrinks



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04 Dec 2011, 10:54 pm

No one here can make definitive statements about what the real ratio is because the ratio itself is contaminated by bias:

http://www.physorg.com/news205403863.html

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When girls with symptoms of autism or ADHD seek professional medical help, their problems are often played down or misinterpreted, and there is a real risk that they will not get the help or support they need. As such, more training is needed in this area, particularly in the public sector, reveals a thesis from the University of Gothenburg.

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The thesis focuses primarily on 100 girls who, before reaching adulthood, went to the doctor on account of difficulties with social interaction and/or concentration at school or elsewhere. They were then referred to the paediatric neuropsychiatric clinic at Sahlgrenska University Hospital between 1999 and 2001.

"We could see that their parents had been concerned about the girls' behaviour or development during their first few years of life," says Svenny Kopp, a doctoral student at the Institute of Neuroscience and Physiology at the Sahlgrenska Academy, and consultant paediatric psychiatrist at the Queen Silvia Children's Hospital. "They had also asked for help at an early stage, but hadn't been given a proper diagnosis."

When subsequently given a thorough psychiatric and psychological examination, nearly half of the girls proved to have autism or other autism spectrum disorders, and just as many had ADHD as their main diagnosis. Compared with the control group of 60 girls without any known serious problems, the 100 girls' performance was severely impaired in all areas studied, including psychological, motor and social function.

It also emerged that the girls with autism and ADHD had additional psychiatric and developmental neurological disorders. For example, anxiety, depression, social behaviour

disorders and difficulties reading and writing were common in both groups. Half of the girls with autism spectrum disorders or ADHD had been bullied, were frequently truant and avoided sport at school. The study also showed that girls with ADHD smoked more frequently and more overall than the control group.

"The results are particularly disturbing given that these girls did not generally have a disadvantaged social background and were mostly of normal intelligence," says Kopp.

She concludes that the healthcare system does not take girls with symptoms of autism or ADHD seriously enough."It's a shame as we now have effective treatments for both autismand ADHD. We therefore need more training across the public sector on girls with mental problems, social interaction difficulties and/or attention problems," she stresses.



socalaspie
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04 Dec 2011, 10:56 pm

Verdandi wrote:
I don't know what the actual ratios are, but I do know a few things:

* Tony Attwood says his adult diagnosis rate is close to 1:1
* Girls who present with symptoms of autism and ADHD are not taken seriously by a lot of medical professionals
* As you look at more and more severe presentations of autism, the more the ratio shrinks

I thought Tony Attwood says the ratio is 2:1, which is better than most but is still very lopsided.

I am curious as to why ADHD is such a common misdiagnosis of Aspies, particularly female ones. The two really have nothing in common and although some (not all) Aspies show marginally "hyperactive" characteristics, it looks a whole lot different from the real thing. For instance I think I mentioned having a female AS neighbor who is officially labeled "ADHD". This young lady is very shy, very childlike, and anything but hyper or possessed of a short attention span. She is extremely focused and methodical on the things that she loves (cats, nature, insects, fantasy novels) and very attentive to detail. Her apartment is rather messy but being very anal or very sloppy are pretty common to the spectrum and have nothing to do with the ADD family of disorders.


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04 Dec 2011, 11:02 pm

Girls more typically present as Inattentive ADHD and it is a common comorbid in ASD. Your neighbor may have one or the other or both. There is no way to tell just from casual observation since the symptoms of both conditions overlap quite a bit.



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04 Dec 2011, 11:08 pm

draelynn wrote:
Girls more typically present as Inattentive ADHD and it is a common comorbid in ASD. Your neighbor may have one or the other or both. There is no way to tell just from casual observation since the symptoms of both conditions overlap quite a bit.


I would argue that the "girls more typically present as inattentive ADHD" is not necessarily fully accurate, and that there are other factors at work (see the research I linked above) that tends to minimize displayed symptoms.



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04 Dec 2011, 11:16 pm

socalaspie wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
I don't know what the actual ratios are, but I do know a few things:

* Tony Attwood says his adult diagnosis rate is close to 1:1
* Girls who present with symptoms of autism and ADHD are not taken seriously by a lot of medical professionals
* As you look at more and more severe presentations of autism, the more the ratio shrinks

I thought Tony Attwood says the ratio is 2:1, which is better than most but is still very lopsided.

I am curious as to why ADHD is such a common misdiagnosis of Aspies, particularly female ones. The two really have nothing in common and although some (not all) Aspies show marginally "hyperactive" characteristics, it looks a whole lot different from the real thing. For instance I think I mentioned having a female AS neighbor who is officially labeled "ADHD". This young lady is very shy, very childlike, and anything but hyper or possessed of a short attention span. She is extremely focused and methodical on the things that she loves (cats, nature, insects, fantasy novels) and very attentive to detail. Her apartment is rather messy but being very anal or very sloppy are pretty common to the spectrum and have nothing to do with the ADD family of disorders.


It's harder for women to be diagnosed with ADHD too.

Anyway, I'll add that ADHD is not a short attention span but attention dysregulation. You can't easily control how or where you focus your attention, but it's not limited to short bursts.



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04 Dec 2011, 11:51 pm

Also, females that with ASDs are more likely to have cognitive impairments. Is this really the case, or is it just that females are unlikely to be diagnosed unless they have cognitive impairments?


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04 Dec 2011, 11:54 pm

Ganondox wrote:
Also, females that with ASDs are more likely to have cognitive impairments. Is this really the case, or is it just that females are unlikely to be diagnosed unless they have cognitive impairments?


Both could be true to some extent.



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05 Dec 2011, 1:51 am

draelynn wrote:
Girls more typically present as Inattentive ADHD and it is a common comorbid in ASD. Your neighbor may have one or the other or both. There is no way to tell just from casual observation since the symptoms of both conditions overlap quite a bit.

You know we often read that ADD/ADHD/BD are common comorbids of the spectrum but I am not sure I buy that. I think that autism mimics those to some degree, or probably more accurately people who don't know the spectrum and don't know what they are talking about conflate all of these conditions out of ignorance and their very superficial similarities. To an untrained person the meltdowns of AS can look like the "crashes" of bipolar disorder or our lack of interest for normal social conventions and/or inability to grasp them can look like attention deficit.

For that matter, I am not even entirely convinced that real ADHD is an illness or disorder that must be corrected or medicated--same with bipolar disorder, to a certain degree.


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