autism - extreme male brain

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well, the whole right brain-left brain business has been debunked, so i'd say i do not agree with Borat's cousin.

The evidence that he has presented as far as the empathizing quotient vs the systemizing quotient, is compelling in aspergers and autism disorder. Overall there is a gender based association with those two elements. But, of course, those aren't the only two elements that have been associated with brain gender.

His digit ratio/prenatal testosterone findings didn't correlate well with individuals with Aspergers; that should have been a clue, as well as any actual interaction with individuals with Aspergers. However, Aspergers was a fairly new condition, that was rare when he started his studies on this. And, there was no wrongplanet, to search for anecdotal evidence on this issue.

One thing I find interesting, is the recent work of Dawson, and evidence that verbal intelligence is relatively higher on average among individuals with Aspergers as compared to performance intelligence, and the opposite among those with Autism Disorder.

Hormonal influences are an established factor in the development of the brain, as well as language acquisition. It could play a different role in Aspergers and Autism Disorder.

If this internet site serves any anecdotal evidence, the gender factor is definitely at play here, but certainly not focused in one direction or another. The best description might be somewhere in the middle range, and/or both, or none of the above. It isn't extreme anything as far as I can see; at least not with Aspergers. Complex gender might be a better term.

I think he's on the right track with hormonal influence, but I think he needs to leave the assignment of a gender to the disorder, out of the equation. The condition of Aspergers has effectively destroyed that term as an appropriate one.

I don't accept the theory and think it's mostly based on weird/wrong labeling of behavior.

I'm usually shy, quiet, peaceable, etc. I actually listen to people? All things which might be considered to be "feminine" qualities? Sometimes I go into a braindump-mode where I tell all excited about something on my mind really fast? This generally considered to be "male" behavior because you "dominate" the conversation? However I don't think that's accurate, because it's very much like when the Ally McBeal character from that tv show in the 90s had her really fast monologues? To be honest I have only ever seen women do anything even remotely, most men can not even think this fast let alone speak.

Yes, I'm technical, I make and fix stuff, I write software, I'm generally good with computers. But are these really "masculine" activities? You don't need to be strong? Women are just as good in logic and math as men are. You need very strong language stills to write software, be very precise and clean while you work? To make beautiful software you need to have a good esthetic sense? These are all qualities that are generally associated more with women then men.

I think people don't really have a clue what "masculine" or "feminine" is, but mistakenly think they do. It just "sounds" right, it "appears" true at first look, but it becomes unraveled as soon as you take a closer look.

(I'm MAAB, but due to genetics have low-T, my D2 is longer then my D4, hell I even have breasts. I don't consider myself "male", nor every have and I don't think I ever will; but the people around me think I am.)

I do agree that what's being called autism is, especially when you consider that the 2D4D ratios of classic autistics is very low, and thta Aspies (even women) usually have a lower ratio than most male NTs. Low in this case means affected by high levels of prenatal testosterone.

SBC goes on to say that a high ratio (long index finger) indicates a very feminized brain and is seen in a portion of NT women along with most schizophrenic patients . He doesn't say anything about the possibility of autism manifesting differently because of these prenatal hormones, only that those with the extremely feminized brains either are schizophrenic or are at increased risk of developing it, I think he's wrong there.

I think there are a lot o female Aspies with this "schizophrenic" brain he's talking about, some are diagnosed but according to that stats the girls with "male" brains are diagnosed more often. But these girls with the opposite ratio basically have the core set of AS traits, obsessions, having their own "world", poor social skills, sensory issues. I think what they have is also extreme empathy as opposed to what you see in what's being DIAGNOSED as 'Classic" AS in most individuals.

My point is that I do agree that what's most commonly described and diagnosed as autism goes along with the theory well, but that autism is manifesting in different ways that nobody's talking about.

Last edited by EXPECIALLY on 01 Mar 2012, 10:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

I didn't know this, I thought he had concluded that most females on the spectrum do have the male ratio.

Not doubting you, and I'm actually not surprised at all because I do have that male ratio, and am probably wired like an NT male because of it, but I notice many diagnosed Aspie women here are not like the males at all.

You know in a sense I agree because I feel like if a female has a brain that's being described as "male", either due to her behavior or based on her finger ratio ( it is legit science, it's not like it's not also applied to NTs and most NT males have the low ratio), certainly she just has an uncommon brain for a female, but that it's a FEMALE brain by default, because she has it.

But that's not to say there would be no women with AS, many who are diagnosed do have the male ratio (and some have the female ratio as well). I think it's misleading to call either male or female only because it implies that if someone has the wiring of the other gender something's "wrong".

Uncommon, yes, but not wrong. You wouldn't tell a left-handed or dyslexic women that she's male because these things are so highly associated with men.

People consider me male, I'm diagnosed with classic autism, but personally I think I'm more of an aspie. My autism has more in common with the way girls with autism experience it than the way boys with autism experience it. Due to genetics I have had low-T all my life and my 2D/D4 > 1.2... so if anything, my body and my brain are not somehow "extremely masculine". If anything I consider myself rather feminine.

I'm female and feel very female. I am super emotional, I never wanted to play with "boy" toys when I was little.

The only "male" trait I have is my dress as I wear pants more than skirts, but many women do this and I wear pants that were made for girls or are gender-neatrual, I don't tend to wore "boy" pants. I also do this as a comfortable thing (sensory issues).

PS: I don't fit the profile for my 2D:4D ratio very well, does this mean anything?

I am a female with autistic disorder. I have a female brain.

I don't think so. At first SBC was saying that most female Aspies had this male ratio as well but I guess has admitted that he was wrong.

Is yours a high ratio or is it equal?

Mine is high. It also is supposed to mean that I'm homosexual, but I am not, though I have no problem with it.

You mean long ring finger? This means low. This is actually what female Aspies are "supposed" to be but that wasn't conclusive at all.

I have the typical girl finger ratio but aesthetically I notice girls more than guys (and androgynous people more than either)... though I think sex is kind of gross and boring at the same time, so you can't really say I'm bisexual 'cause that would assume I'm sexual to begin with! Girls are just nicer to look at; but guys are more interesting to talk to. I'm asexual, but I think if I ever try romantic stuff, I'll be bi-romantic. Maybe. Still deciding on whether I ever want to try being part of a couple. It seems awfully stifling to me. I'd like a close friendship, I think, but I think I'd rather not live together with anybody. Maybe it'll be a platonic open relationship.

Actually, you know what? I'm going to stop trying to pin this down with words. If I like somebody, I like somebody; and if I don't want sex, then I'm not going to be ashamed of not wanting sex. Labels are too vague to describe anything so precise as a person is.

Hey look! His index finger is longer than his ring finger! That means he must be gay!

There is a lot more to the brain than just how much testorone you are exposed to in the womb. Whether or not this systemizing system is accurate or not I don't know, but I feel defining it as male-brain/female-brain is rather arbitrary. Guess what? Animal lovers are stereotyped as being girls. Since many autistic people like animals, does that make them female brained?

Yeah, just because males/females are generalized in the same way as AS/NTs doesn't mean much to me.

I think a lot of this guy's research has been trying to confirm what he thinks he already knows. In this study they went so far as to say women with autistic traits are more likely to want to become men. I wonder if they ever considered that women who want to become men are more likely to have their traits recognized, as men are?

Sorry, bad wording on my part. Per his study the abnormal digit ratios, did not correlate as low with aspergers as autism. However, they were still lower than what is considered normal for the general population. That is an average though, of 23 participants, so it is more likely that some don't fit the low 2D/4D ratio mold among those with aspergers than with autism.

Here is a link that references Cohen's work, as well some other studies that have showed associations. But, no firm rules apply, except for the physiological ones for the influence of testosterone and the 2D/4D ratio. Estrogen plays a role on prenatal development as well, and has been suggested as a factor in autism as well.

http://flatrock.org.nz/topics/odds_and_oddities/finger_length_ratios.htm

Human beings are fascinating in their variations. Stereotypes are broken everyday, because of that variation. I can't think of a more interesting example than Tim Tebow, from the perspective of how diverse the expressions of masculinity and femininity can be in one person. He is described as one of the strongest and most aggressive football players in history, nicknamed superman, but is also described as extremely feminine through emotional response, verbal, and non-verbal communication.

It would be a horribly boring world if everyone was the same.

The best of all worlds, is one where one can accept everyone else for whom they are. It makes one's world a much bigger place.