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Why am I to blame?

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sharkattack
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25 May 2012, 9:36 am

As regards offending people I never feel sorry anymore.

It is not just what we say.

In any social group people b***h about others behind their back.
Sometimes we can end up in trouble for not shunning a person and not following the herd mentality.

Not being able to read social cues very well I judge people on their actions.

A lot of NTs are very ugly individuals and people around them seem to be blind to this.



NicoleG
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25 May 2012, 9:37 am

jonny23 wrote:
Unless you are simply not giving any thought to your action and being completely negligent.


If I said something, then I intended to say it, but I may not have intended how they chose to interpret it. Why am I held accountable for how they interpreted my words, even after I explain it?



lostgirl1986
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25 May 2012, 9:38 am

...because that's how things work in the neurotypical world



sharkattack
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25 May 2012, 9:45 am

jonny23 wrote:
sharkattack wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
sharkattack wrote:
I have to disagree with some on this subject.

When people like us show weakness we are bullied.

People can stick their offense.


I'm not going to take any crap from a bully but why would that make it ok to be offensive?


What I mean is some people go out of their way to be offended.

I may not be good in social situations and people who get offended at the least thing are not worth the effort.

People like us miss social cues and some people might be offended by this.

We as a group suffer from being picked on due being seen as a soft target.

I am talking about common sense here not extreme cases.


I agree that if you feel that they are being unreasonable then just tell them so or don't interact with them anymore.


Dealing with one person can be ok dealing with lot's of people is what gets me.
That is why many of us retreat from social situations.

I also have difficulty get across my point and intentions.

For example replying to you a few times I am not disagreeing with you I am just fleshing out the point.

Many of us know our communication skills suck.

Many times I talk too much.



Last edited by sharkattack on 25 May 2012, 9:46 am, edited 1 time in total.

jonny23
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25 May 2012, 9:45 am

NicoleG wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
Unless you are simply not giving any thought to your action and being completely negligent.


If I said something, then I intended to say it, but I may not have intended how they chose to interpret it. Why am I held accountable for how they interpreted my words, even after I explain it?


If you say "You're fat" you may have been accurate and meant no offense but you were still offensive. There are consequences for all of your action. Being right or wrong isn't allays the issue. Someone is still hurt. If you explain that you meant no harm they will probably forgive you but they may still be hurt for a while. If you continue to hurt them they may decide not to like you. You did not intend for any of this to happen but it is the simple truth.

If you are talking about someone who is just being unreasonable then just ignore it.



sharkattack
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25 May 2012, 9:50 am

jonny23 wrote:
NicoleG wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
Unless you are simply not giving any thought to your action and being completely negligent.


If I said something, then I intended to say it, but I may not have intended how they chose to interpret it. Why am I held accountable for how they interpreted my words, even after I explain it?


If you say "You're fat" you may have been accurate and meant no offense but you were still offensive. There are consequences for all of your action. Being right or wrong isn't allays the issue. Someone is still hurt. If you explain that you meant no harm they will probably forgive you but they may still be hurt for a while. If you continue to hurt them they may decide not to like you. You did not intend for any of this to happen but it is the simple truth.

If you are talking about someone who is just being unreasonable then just ignore it.


It's two way street many NTs say very hurtful things and do we take it as a joke or take offense?

I know I have spent a lot of my life worrying and feeling guilty I don't see normal people worrying or questing their actions not matter how foul.



ToughDiamond
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25 May 2012, 9:52 am

NicoleG wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
ToughDiamond wrote:
I agree that if you don't know a thing will hurt somebody, you can't logically be expected to admit blame.

I think apologizing is also about showing your intentions. If you apologize your telling them that you didn't meant to hurt them. If you don't it's seen that you where trying to hurt them.


I have a very difficult time apologizing when I don't feel guilty, and I very rarely feel guilty if I did not have mean intentions.

Saying "I didn't have any mean intentions with what I said," is not enough. The other person EXPECTS an apology. It doesn't seem to matter my intentions, because otherwise they would accept it when I tell them I didn't have any bad intentions. I am still being held 'accountable' (to get away from the words 'blame' and 'fault') for how they took my words.


If I think somebody's trying to guilt-trip me, I won't comply. But I think it helps to detach from the idea that "I'm sorry" means "I'm to blame," at least when people aren't trying to guilt-trip me. It's OK if they just got hurt or annoyed and they're saying "I wish you hadn't done that because it made x more difficult for me." I don't think the exact words are all that important as long as you don't seem to be distancing yourself from the criticism. I used to have a habit of shrugging my shoulders, and all I meant was to say that I didn't accept that I'd been a bad person, but it was taken as meaning that I was shrugging their feelings off as unimportant, that I didn't want to know about the criticism. So I'm careful with my shoulders now.



Last edited by ToughDiamond on 25 May 2012, 9:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

NicoleG
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25 May 2012, 9:52 am

lostgirl1986 wrote:
...because that's how things work in the neurotypical world


LOL - best answer yet. ;)



NicoleG
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25 May 2012, 9:57 am

jonny23 wrote:
Being right or wrong isn't always the issue.

If you are talking about someone who is just being unreasonable then just ignore it.


See, to me, being honest should be the issue, and when someone is making their feelings be the issue, they are automatically being unreasonable, because by definition they are not using reason to evaluate the situation, but instead using their (hurt) emotions.

I also find that it is nigh impossible to reason AT ALL with someone who is beyond hurt and is impassioned.

People and their feelings. Sheesh.



jonny23
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25 May 2012, 10:01 am

NicoleG wrote:
Saying "I didn't have any mean intentions with what I said," is not enough. The other person EXPECTS an apology.


Depends on the situation. If you just called them fat but where only making an observation then I believe you still owe them an apology because you didn't take there feelings into account when you stated the observation. You where the one being reckless.



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25 May 2012, 10:09 am

NicoleG wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
Being right or wrong isn't always the issue.

If you are talking about someone who is just being unreasonable then just ignore it.


See, to me, being honest should be the issue, and when someone is making their feelings be the issue, they are automatically being unreasonable, because by definition they are not using reason to evaluate the situation, but instead using their (hurt) emotions.

I also find that it is nigh impossible to reason AT ALL with someone who is beyond hurt and is impassioned.

People and their feelings. Sheesh.


I felt exactly the same way as you for many years. Including the first 8 or so years of my marriage. The question you have to ask yourself is, do you want to be right or do you want to be happy. They are not always the same thing =)



NicoleG
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25 May 2012, 10:09 am

jonny23 wrote:
...because you didn't take there feelings into account...


That's the crux of it.

My emotional accounting system is highly borked, so I rely quite heavily on my logical system instead. Even when I do take into account their emotions, I still manage to say the wrong thing, like in TallyMan's example above.

I am still being held accountable (funny how that word now has almost a double meaning here) for their emotions.

1+1=2 doesn't seem to make sense to the other person, because they keep saying 1+1=5. :shrug:



jonny23
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25 May 2012, 10:10 am

NicoleG wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
...because you didn't take there feelings into account...


That's the crux of it.

My emotional accounting system is highly borked, so I rely quite heavily on my logical system instead. Even when I do take into account their emotions, I still manage to say the wrong thing, like in TallyMan's example above.

I am still being held accountable (funny how that word now has almost a double meaning here) for their emotions.

1+1=2 doesn't seem to make sense to the other person, because they keep saying 1+1=5. :shrug:


If you fall asleep at the wheel and crash into someones house you are still accountable even if you didn't meant to.



sharkattack
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25 May 2012, 10:15 am

NicoleG wrote:
jonny23 wrote:
...because you didn't take there feelings into account...


That's the crux of it.

My emotional accounting system is highly borked, so I rely quite heavily on my logical system instead. Even when I do take into account their emotions, I still manage to say the wrong thing, like in TallyMan's example above.

I am still being held accountable (funny how that word now has almost a double meaning here) for their emotions.

1+1=2 doesn't seem to make sense to the other person, because they keep saying 1+1=5. :shrug:


You rely on your logical side that is the problem.

The world is not a fair place and people are generally not very logical from what I can see.


1+1 = 5 is the correct answer if most of the world says it is.

Now logic says 1+1 = 2 but this is the wrong answer because you are the odd one out in that situation.

I have no idea how the NT brain works but they are in the majority.



jonny23
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25 May 2012, 10:16 am

sharkattack wrote:
It's two way street many NTs say very hurtful things and do we take it as a joke or take offense?

I know I have spent a lot of my life worrying and feeling guilty I don't see normal people worrying or questing their actions not matter how foul.


Again, just because someone else did it doesn't make it right. And if someone says something hurtful to you then you have every right to take offense.



NicoleG
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25 May 2012, 10:22 am

jonny23 wrote:
do you want to be right or do you want to be happy.


That's very similar to a quote from Sean Barron in The Unwritten Rules of Social Relationships. I don't have the book with me, so I'm paraphrasing, but he said he preferred the company of friends over the company of honesty.

I prefer having friends that can accept my level of honesty. If that means I have very few friends because what I seek is like finding unicorns in the wild, then I guess that is a choice I am making. Someone who doesn't fall into my friend category I might just decide in the moment how I want to handle a situation like this, and not be afraid to tell them they're being a boob.



Last edited by NicoleG on 25 May 2012, 10:42 am, edited 1 time in total.