13 Jun 2012, 7:28 pm
13 Jun 2012, 7:51 pm
13 Jun 2012, 7:57 pm
yellowtamarin wrote:
I've just had another thought, as I've read the more recent responses that hadn't come through yet as I was typing. Rascal77s has easily (I gather) come up with a number of possible reasons why someone might like listening to music. I suppose I could too. But if I was asked this question in a formal assessment, with a stranger sitting there waiting for my answer, I would be less likely to start rattling off possible answers, and more likely to sit there stumped because I don't know what the "correct" answer is, i.e. what they are expecting me to say.
This lack of ToM theory may seem plausible partly due to the fact that observing someone with AS in a research setting produces different results to the "real world". Clearly your daughter's response to her assessor was quite different to the one she gave you. And Rascall77s answer to the question may have been different if it was given in an assessment environment (correct me if I'm wrong, Rascal77s, I don't mean to assume!).
Also saying "how am I supposed to know what other people think" doesn't equal "I can't think up any possible things a person might think", but the ToM seems to suggest that it does. I would be interested to know if your daughter could easily come up with possible answers to the question, by having the question worded differently, e.g. "What might be some reasons a person would like listening to music?"
This lack of ToM theory may seem plausible partly due to the fact that observing someone with AS in a research setting produces different results to the "real world". Clearly your daughter's response to her assessor was quite different to the one she gave you. And Rascall77s answer to the question may have been different if it was given in an assessment environment (correct me if I'm wrong, Rascal77s, I don't mean to assume!).
Also saying "how am I supposed to know what other people think" doesn't equal "I can't think up any possible things a person might think", but the ToM seems to suggest that it does. I would be interested to know if your daughter could easily come up with possible answers to the question, by having the question worded differently, e.g. "What might be some reasons a person would like listening to music?"
My inability to answer would have been the same regardless of the setting. The problem isn't lack of imagination, it's too much imagination. When I'm presented with an abstract problem like this one my mind starts working through multiple possibilities and I'm not able to produce an answer. When dealing with a non abstract concept, like how do people connect DVD players to the TV, the range of possibilities is much smaller so I can give an answer instantly. That's why I'm saying this is an problem with abstract concepts rather than ToM. The question was about an undefined group. If you were to ask me why my sociology professor likes music I would be able to answer that because, again, the variables are minimized and I don't have to go through unending variable combinations of people and 'likes'. Hope that makes sense
13 Jun 2012, 8:22 pm
Rascal77s wrote:
yellowtamarin wrote:
I've just had another thought, as I've read the more recent responses that hadn't come through yet as I was typing. Rascal77s has easily (I gather) come up with a number of possible reasons why someone might like listening to music. I suppose I could too. But if I was asked this question in a formal assessment, with a stranger sitting there waiting for my answer, I would be less likely to start rattling off possible answers, and more likely to sit there stumped because I don't know what the "correct" answer is, i.e. what they are expecting me to say.
This lack of ToM theory may seem plausible partly due to the fact that observing someone with AS in a research setting produces different results to the "real world". Clearly your daughter's response to her assessor was quite different to the one she gave you. And Rascall77s answer to the question may have been different if it was given in an assessment environment (correct me if I'm wrong, Rascal77s, I don't mean to assume!).
Also saying "how am I supposed to know what other people think" doesn't equal "I can't think up any possible things a person might think", but the ToM seems to suggest that it does. I would be interested to know if your daughter could easily come up with possible answers to the question, by having the question worded differently, e.g. "What might be some reasons a person would like listening to music?"
This lack of ToM theory may seem plausible partly due to the fact that observing someone with AS in a research setting produces different results to the "real world". Clearly your daughter's response to her assessor was quite different to the one she gave you. And Rascall77s answer to the question may have been different if it was given in an assessment environment (correct me if I'm wrong, Rascal77s, I don't mean to assume!).
Also saying "how am I supposed to know what other people think" doesn't equal "I can't think up any possible things a person might think", but the ToM seems to suggest that it does. I would be interested to know if your daughter could easily come up with possible answers to the question, by having the question worded differently, e.g. "What might be some reasons a person would like listening to music?"
My inability to answer would have been the same regardless of the setting. The problem isn't lack of imagination, it's too much imagination. When I'm presented with an abstract problem like this one my mind starts working through multiple possibilities and I'm not able to produce an answer. When dealing with a non abstract concept, like how do people connect DVD players to the TV, the range of possibilities is much smaller so I can give an answer instantly. That's why I'm saying this is an problem with abstract concepts rather than ToM. The question was about an undefined group. If you were to ask me why my sociology professor likes music I would be able to answer that because, again, the variables are minimized and I don't have to go through unending variable combinations of people and 'likes'. Hope that makes sense
Yes, I think I agree with you. I thought your answer might be different just because if someone was pressuring you for an answer in that sort of setting, you might (after much difficulty) give one answer rather than talking about how there are many possibilities. I'm wondering if this might be why we come across as having a lack of imagination, because we don't get a chance to explain all the other thoughts we have had in our heads (e.g. there are so many possibilities!), so we come across as struggling to come up with anything. This is what happens with me I think, anyway.
I find the abstract concepts idea REALLY DIFFICULT to explain to my psych. I try to tell him that there are concepts I just don't understand, but trying to explain what the problem is is near impossible. Your explanation actually helps a bit, I might throw something like that at my psych next visit
13 Jun 2012, 10:50 pm
Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
I wasn't sure what to call this thread, I hope it gets a few hits. I'd like to ask everyone for your thoughts on this matter. I'm only giving this as an example.
My daughter is being assessed for autism and has just about completed the speech & language assessment, which has been done over the course of a few weeks. The first few times the therapist saw her, she assessed her basic language skills, which are at the high end of average. Last week, she was assessing her pragmatic language skills, which was done partly by observing her in class. Here's what happened: The teacher asked her, 'Why do people like listening to music?' My daughter was stumped, apparently. The teacher had to prise an answer out of her. Eventually she said that it helps them to relax, or something like that. The answer was fine, but it took a while to get there and she didn't seem comfortable with what she said. The therapist told me that was as expected for a child on the spectrum. So, when my daughter came home, I asked her about it. She said that she was being asked to answer an impossible question. She said, 'The teacher asked me why people liked listening to music. I know why I like listening to music, it helps me to sleep, but I don't know why other people like it. I can't read minds, how am I supposed to know what other people think, without asking them'.
Is she thinking too much?
Is she right? It seems logical.
Is everyone else just being presumptive, i.e. they think they know what others' thoughts are?
Does this sound like a ToM problem?
Any thoughts on the matter would be great. As I said, this is just an example. Please add your own.
I'd like to ask everyone for your thoughts on this matter. I'm only giving this as an example. My daughter is being assessed for autism and has just about completed the speech & language assessment, which has been done over the course of a few weeks. The first few times the therapist saw her, she assessed her basic language skills, which are at the high end of average. Last week, she was assessing her pragmatic language skills, which was done partly by observing her in class. Here's what happened: The teacher asked her, 'Why do people like listening to music?' My daughter was stumped, apparently. The teacher had to prise an answer out of her. Eventually she said that it helps them to relax, or something like that. The answer was fine, but it took a while to get there and she didn't seem comfortable with what she said. The therapist told me that was as expected for a child on the spectrum. So, when my daughter came home, I asked her about it. She said that she was being asked to answer an impossible question. She said, 'The teacher asked me why people liked listening to music. I know why I like listening to music, it helps me to sleep, but I don't know why other people like it. I can't read minds, how am I supposed to know what other people think, without asking them'.
Is she thinking too much?
Is she right? It seems logical.
Is everyone else just being presumptive, i.e. they think they know what others' thoughts are?
Does this sound like a ToM problem?
Any thoughts on the matter would be great. As I said, this is just an example. Please add your own.
I need more details.......
Background: Peer relationships in-particularly social interaction and communication that would foster ToM.
Does she have any siblings or was she exposed to an environment ( involving her peers) that would promote consistent and age appropriate situations THAT use ToM ?
For your daughter to have the presence of mind to realize others may NOT have the same thoughts THAT she has leads me to believe THAT.......role playing, situational practice, or some sort of initiated peer involvement during play time might surprise a few people in regards to ToM.
Yes, she needed a bit of prompting and she was a bit unsure BUT she eventually got IT.
You have to build on these moments. Do not let them slide. When ever you find out 'why' she answers the way she does, compliment her on her perspective THEN give her examples of other perspectives( including the one which was implied) and explain to her "why' these perspectives could be true.
IF there is one obvious perspective ( or social acceptable correct answer) explain 'why' using the same process i outlined above.
I suggest doing it this way because frankly what she said is valid. We want to give her different perspectives without silencing hers.
*these are just opinions and should be taken as such.
TheSunAlsoRises
Last edited by TheSunAlsoRises on 15 Jun 2012, 3:47 pm, edited 2 times in total.
14 Jun 2012, 2:59 am
Mummy_of_Peanut
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14 Jun 2012, 4:15 am
Matt62 wrote:
I probably could not answer this question when I was a child, but that sounds like an extremely well-though answer for a 6.5 year old child! I am rather impressed actually.
Sincerely,
Matthew
I was quite taken aback too, but she has a habit of causing that to happen. Sincerely,
Matthew
14 Jun 2012, 6:03 am
Mummy_of_Peanut
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14 Jun 2012, 6:30 am
Mummy_of_Peanut
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14 Jun 2012, 6:31 am
Mummy_of_Peanut
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14 Jun 2012, 6:39 am
Mummy_of_Peanut
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14 Jun 2012, 6:46 am
14 Jun 2012, 7:47 am
Rascal77s wrote:
yellowtamarin wrote:
I've just had another thought, as I've read the more recent responses that hadn't come through yet as I was typing. Rascal77s has easily (I gather) come up with a number of possible reasons why someone might like listening to music. I suppose I could too. But if I was asked this question in a formal assessment, with a stranger sitting there waiting for my answer, I would be less likely to start rattling off possible answers, and more likely to sit there stumped because I don't know what the "correct" answer is, i.e. what they are expecting me to say.
This lack of ToM theory may seem plausible partly due to the fact that observing someone with AS in a research setting produces different results to the "real world". Clearly your daughter's response to her assessor was quite different to the one she gave you. And Rascall77s answer to the question may have been different if it was given in an assessment environment (correct me if I'm wrong, Rascal77s, I don't mean to assume!).
Also saying "how am I supposed to know what other people think" doesn't equal "I can't think up any possible things a person might think", but the ToM seems to suggest that it does. I would be interested to know if your daughter could easily come up with possible answers to the question, by having the question worded differently, e.g. "What might be some reasons a person would like listening to music?"
This lack of ToM theory may seem plausible partly due to the fact that observing someone with AS in a research setting produces different results to the "real world". Clearly your daughter's response to her assessor was quite different to the one she gave you. And Rascall77s answer to the question may have been different if it was given in an assessment environment (correct me if I'm wrong, Rascal77s, I don't mean to assume!).
Also saying "how am I supposed to know what other people think" doesn't equal "I can't think up any possible things a person might think", but the ToM seems to suggest that it does. I would be interested to know if your daughter could easily come up with possible answers to the question, by having the question worded differently, e.g. "What might be some reasons a person would like listening to music?"
My inability to answer would have been the same regardless of the setting. The problem isn't lack of imagination, it's too much imagination. When I'm presented with an abstract problem like this one my mind starts working through multiple possibilities and I'm not able to produce an answer. When dealing with a non abstract concept, like how do people connect DVD players to the TV, the range of possibilities is much smaller so I can give an answer instantly. That's why I'm saying this is an problem with abstract concepts rather than ToM. The question was about an undefined group. If you were to ask me why my sociology professor likes music I would be able to answer that because, again, the variables are minimized and I don't have to go through unending variable combinations of people and 'likes'. Hope that makes sense
My problem is the same. I don't have a lack of imagaination, I just am confused at what people want to hear. I study Religion and Philosophy. I think it terms of what "could be," rather than what "is" in terms of questions like the one posed to the little girl. In my own head I never have a real answer for anything. However, in real life, I am always searching to give the answer that people are looking for. This can be very confusing for me at times.
This all makes the ToM very interesting to me.
14 Jun 2012, 8:10 am
MindWithoutWalls
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14 Jun 2012, 3:40 pm
Mummy_of_Peanut
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14 Jun 2012, 3:43 pm
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