Interpretation of high VIQ - PIQ difference - NVLD

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mrsmith
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27 Jun 2012, 2:01 pm

Ettina wrote:
And regarding AS/autism and VIQ>PIQ:

VIQ>PIQ is more common in AS. But so is PIQ>VIQ. In fact, if you divide autistics into three groups based on whether their VIQ and PIQ are 15 points apart and which one's higher, you get roughly a third in each category - VIQ>PIQ, VIQ=PIQ and PIQ>VIQ are about the same frequency.


I think 80% of Asperger population are NVLD. That doesn't quite compute with the above?

If it is different for ASD as a whole or other subgroups than Asperger, aren't we then talking about Non-Verbal individuals?
In that case my left-right theory doesn't really apply.

Also isn't it a bit unclear if IQ measurements apply for non-verbal individuals?



Last edited by mrsmith on 28 Jun 2012, 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.

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27 Jun 2012, 6:26 pm

mrsmith wrote:
Ettina wrote:
And regarding AS/autism and VIQ>PIQ:

VIQ>PIQ is more common in AS. But so is PIQ>VIQ. In fact, if you divide autistics into three groups based on whether their VIQ and PIQ are 15 points apart and which one's higher, you get roughly a third in each category - VIQ>PIQ, VIQ=PIQ and PIQ>VIQ are about the same frequency.


I think 80% of Asperger population are NVLD. That doesn't quite the above?

If it is different for ASD as a whole or other subgroups than Asperger, aren't we then talking about Non-Verbal individuals?


No. HFA are verbal (at least most of their life); many (probably most) people with PDD/NOS (the most diagnosed ASD) are also verbal; etc.



Ettina
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27 Jun 2012, 8:30 pm

An example of a verbal autistic individual who I'm almost certain has PIQ>VIQ is Temple Grandin. She finds visual and spatial tasks easy, and must translate words into pictures to understand them. She had a language delay, but caught up once she learnt to compensate effectively.



mrsmith
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28 Jun 2012, 11:15 am

Ettina wrote:
And regarding AS/autism and VIQ>PIQ:

VIQ>PIQ is more common in AS. But so is PIQ>VIQ. In fact, if you divide autistics into three groups based on whether their VIQ and PIQ are 15 points apart and which one's higher, you get roughly a third in each category - VIQ>PIQ, VIQ=PIQ and PIQ>VIQ are about the same frequency.


According to the below article, the communication issues are different with different VIQ- NVIQ, and if prevalence of NVLD is 80%, in Asperger, my theory still stands.

(It is of course very interesting that more severe ASD (Autism) has a different IQ profile, but it also means they are not relevant for the argument for Aspies.

Reg HFA,, 30% NVLD is still quite a high correlation.


****
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... ool=pubmed
Abstract
*****

We investigated the relationship of discrepancies between VIQ and NVIQ (IQ split) to autism symptoms and adaptive behavior in a sample of high-functioning (mean FSIQ = 98.5) school-age children with autism spectrum disorders divided into three groups: discrepantly high VIQ (n = 18); discrepantly high NVIQ (n = 24); and equivalent VIQ and NVIQ (n = 36). Discrepantly high VIQ and NVIQ were associated with autism social symptoms but not communication symptoms or repetitive behaviors. Higher VIQ and NVIQ were associated with better adaptive communication but not socialization or Daily Living Skills. IQ discrepancy may be an important phenotypic marker in autism. Although better verbal abilities are associated with better functional outcomes in autism, discrepantly high VIQ in high-functioning children may also be associated with social difficulties.Link to article



Last edited by mrsmith on 30 Jun 2012, 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.

Anty28
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28 Jun 2012, 11:33 am

At age 10, I took an IQ test, my VIQ was 150 and my PIQ 117... Is that a significant difference ?



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28 Jun 2012, 6:24 pm

Anty28 wrote:
At age 10, I took an IQ test, my VIQ was 150 and my PIQ 117... Is that a significant difference ?


Probably more than 15 points (if 1 standard deviation = 15 p.) is a significant difference



cavendish
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28 Jun 2012, 7:57 pm

Anty28 wrote:
At age 10, I took an IQ test, my VIQ was 150 and my PIQ 117... Is that a significant difference ?



It's not uncommon at all for high IQ types to have large differences. You may have a vision problem, however, so you may want to consult with a behavioral/developmental optometrist. A thirty three point V>P split should be no major concern as long as ones vision was properly checked out. If it was close to fifty points, then it would be quite significant.


Anty28 wrote:
At age 10, I took an IQ test, my VIQ was 150 and my PIQ 117... Is that a significant difference ?



mrsmith
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30 Jun 2012, 3:46 pm

Ettina wrote:
And regarding AS/autism and VIQ>PIQ:

VIQ>PIQ is more common in AS. But so is PIQ>VIQ. In fact, if you divide autistics into three groups based on whether their VIQ and PIQ are 15 points apart and which one's higher, you get roughly a third in each category - VIQ>PIQ, VIQ=PIQ and PIQ>VIQ are about the same frequency.


Isn't that the normal distribution?



mrsmith
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07 Jul 2012, 3:42 am

I have been surfing a bit and I find people saying that most professionals think it (NVLD, Alexitthymia) is a right-brain problem, but that they disagree.

I have seen nobody saying/confirming it can be a left-right coordination issue though. Or that high VIQ-PIQ can be a combination of the left-right coordination and weaker right brain.

Actually I have this idea from the Neuro-Psychiatrists, and we talked more about being stuck in one side, than necessarily being stuck on the left side, so perhaps all this different disorders are stuck, but in different ways.

So i think we (NVLD/AS) are stuck on the left side, and this leads to a lack of dynamism, and ...stuckedness.

One example of lack of dynamism can be responding quickly in conversations.
(Often thinking afterwards about what we should have said).

I think stuckedness leads to not being able to finish work in a short time horizon.
Leading to procrastination and difficulty finishing off projects.
(But also perhaps sometimes doing OK if we can "sleep on it").

In my field (IT) often it is important to "flip" and try something else, we would be bad in such areas.
We should be more persistent, which is perhaps more important in other areas.

Before you write something like "but i do know that the idea of left and right brain functional localisation and functional localisation of the brain in general is outdated", please watch:
http://www.ted.com/talks/iain_mcgilchri ... brain.html

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dFs9WO2B8uI#![/youtube]The Diveded Brain

Corrections

mrsmith wrote:
Backgroud

VIQ - Verbal IQ
PIQ - Permormance IQ
NVLD is pretty much defined by a high VIQ-PIQ difference. It also high in ASD, and populations are overlapping.
(But the NVLD population is bigger)

NVLD is quite evenly spread between men and women, while ASD is much more common in boys.


Since ASD not AS has much less of this profile than AS, the overlap is smaller than I though.
Also NVLD not ASD would not be as much higher in women than men as I though.

About the Cerebellum, it seems it is actually Corpus Callosum associated with left-right communication.



janvier25
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24 Oct 2012, 9:55 am

cavendish wrote:
Anty28 wrote:
At age 10, I took an IQ test, my VIQ was 150 and my PIQ 117... Is that a significant difference ?


It's not uncommon at all for high IQ types to have large differences. You may have a vision problem, however, so you may want to consult with a behavioral/developmental optometrist. A thirty three point V>P split should be no major concern as long as ones vision was properly checked out. If it was close to fifty points, then it would be quite significant.


1 standard deviation in the WISC/WAIS is 15 points. 1.5 SDs is considered significant. 45 pts is 3 SDs, above the 99.9th percentile, so 50 is literally off the chart.



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26 Oct 2012, 4:44 am

janvier25 wrote:
cavendish wrote:
Anty28 wrote:
At age 10, I took an IQ test, my VIQ was 150 and my PIQ 117... Is that a significant difference ?


It's not uncommon at all for high IQ types to have large differences. You may have a vision problem, however, so you may want to consult with a behavioral/developmental optometrist. A thirty three point V>P split should be no major concern as long as ones vision was properly checked out. If it was close to fifty points, then it would be quite significant.


1 standard deviation in the WISC/WAIS is 15 points. 1.5 SDs is considered significant. 45 pts is 3 SDs, above the 99.9th percentile, so 50 is literally off the chart.


I think for NVLD the significant difference is 2 standard deviations?

This means that PIQ is in the lower 2.5 percentile compared to the VIQ.

I would find it reasonable that the point difference should be different with a high IQ level, but I have never seen how it is calculated.
:-( I guess they just don't care)



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01 Dec 2012, 7:21 am

Quote:
Isn't that the normal distribution?


No, the vast majority of people have PIQ and VIQ that are very similar to each other. A difference of 10-15 points between the two is rare. For example, see this study:

http://www3.telus.net/Todd_S_Woodward/pdfs/Base-rates-of-WAIS-R-VIQ-PIQ.pdf

They say that about 84% of psychiatric patients have a VIQ and PIQ within 15 points of each other, and this was a similar rate to an earlier study with the general population. So 16% versus 60% is a pretty large difference.

It's a bell curve, just like total IQ is. If you subtract PIQ from VIQ, most people cluster around 0, and relatively few are at the tails of high discrepancy.



mrsmith
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01 Dec 2012, 7:32 am

Ettina wrote:
Quote:
Isn't that the normal distribution?


What i wrote was based on the misunderstanding that 15p represented 1 stdev in the difference.
(which would be far less signifficant)



Last edited by mrsmith on 01 Dec 2012, 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

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01 Dec 2012, 10:41 am

PIQ ≈ 99,8th percentile
VIQ ≈ 85th percentile

VIQ/PIQ gap ≈ 2 SD

aspie.



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01 Dec 2012, 2:41 pm

I found this article interesting:

Evidence for Latent Classes of IQ In Young Children with Autism Spectrum Disorder

(bolding is mine, italics are my additions)

Quote:
(...) Furthermore, distinctions between verbal and nonverbal information processing abilities are often not explored, but may be important in identifying subtypes in autism. Tager-Flusberg and Joseph (2003) investigated discrepancies between verbal and nonverbal IQ in children with autism and found children with discrepantly high nonverbal skills relative to verbal skills had greater social impairment independent of absolute level of verbal ability and overall ability.


Quote:
Children who were lower-functioning as defined by nonverbal IQ at pre-school tended to show poorer outcome at school age, suggesting that nonverbal IQ is an extremely potent predictor membership among school-age children.


Quote:
Diagnosis of ASD was based on administration of the Autism Diagnostic Observation Schedule-Generic and Autism Diagnostic Interview-Revised. All of the children met criteria for autism (N=357, 78%) or autism spectrum disorder (N= 99, 22%) on the ADOS-G. Nearly all of the children met criteria for a diagnosis of autism on the ADI-R (N=431, 95%) with the remaining 25 children (from 456) within 2 pts of a diagnosis of autism on the ADI-R.

So, the study is primarily relevant to those who are diagnosed with classic autism.

Quote:
In the present paper, both LCA (latent class analysis) and maximum covariance (MAXCOV), the most widely studied taxometric algorithm, were used to address the question of whether subgroups of ASD can be identified from the verbal and nonverbal IQ scores of probands.

To summarize, although it is unclear whether distinct subtypes of autism exist, a recurring pattern emerges in which IQ strongly predicts social functioning, adaptive behavior, severity of symptoms, and prognosis (Coplan & Jawad, 2005; Howlin, Goode, Hutton, & Rutter, 2004; Bolte & Poustka, 2002; Liss et al., 2001; Carpentieri & Morgan, 1996).


Quote:
Means on the Mullen IQ scores for the four groups identified in the 4 groups LCA solution are illustrated in Figure 1. Rather than simply reflecting overall differences in intellectual functioning these groups illustrate striking differences in both the absolute level of functioning as well as the relative abilities of the verbal and nonverbal areas. The lowest group (59% of the sample) was characterized by extremely low verbal scores as well as very low nonverbal scores with an average difference between verbal and nonverbal scores of 22 points. The second group (12.5%) was similar, however, the discrepancy between verbal and nonverbal scores in this group was even more extreme, with nonverbal scores averaging 42 points higher than verbal scores. The third group (21.7%) showed moderate to mild level of impairment with scores in the 60–70 range with verbal abilities commensurate with nonverbal abilities. The final group (7.0%) reflect a subgroup of children functioning in the average range again with verbal and nonverbal areas at roughly comparable levels. This fourth group was the only one in which the pair of verbal or nonverbal subtests showed a widely different pattern. In this group the visual reception scale was much notable higher than the fine motor scale.


My note: The scores I got on WAIS have a striking resemblance to this fourth group identified, as my verbal and non-verbal scores are roughly equal, while there is a large split between visual perception scale and processing speed scale, the latter being much lower (processing speed scale is roughly the same as fine motor scale). This supports my notion that my PDD-NOS diagnosis is essentially a HFA diagnosis rather than Asperger's, especially if one considers the NVLD-subtype.

Quote:
Despite the striking difference in levels of cognitive functioning between groups 3 and 4, this did not translate into systematic differences in adaptive functioning or level of autism symptoms as measured by the ADOS and ADI.

We also found that LCA group membership accounted for significant proportion of the variability of Vineland socialization, communication, daily living skills, and ADI social scores beyond that accounted for by the Mullen verbal IQ and nonverbal IQ scores. This provides additional evidence of the importance of considering IQ in young children with ASD more than simply a single dimension. Indeed, the results presented here suggest that there is more than a simple linear relationship between intellectual functioning and adaptive behavior and autism symptoms, even when independently measuring both verbal and nonverbal intellectual abilities.


Quote:
In summary, by examining a large, well-characterized sample of preschool children with ASD, these findings provide an important evidence of the presence of multiple IQ-based subgroups within autism. Four latent classes were identified, that represent a very different levels of intellectual functioning as well as different patterns of relative verbal versus nonverbal abilities. Group membership was found to relate to adaptive functioning and social impairment, above and beyond the direct relationship of verbal and nonverbal IQ. Cross-sectional samples such as this must be complemented with longitudinal data as variability in course represents yet another area of heterogeneity in autism where much remains to be learned.


The selection of quotes may be a bit arbitrary and subjective, so I suggest reading the whole article. You get the idea, though.


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01 Dec 2012, 8:56 pm

Quote:
Furthermore, distinctions between verbal and nonverbal information processing abilities are often not explored, but may be important in identifying subtypes in autism. Tager-Flusberg and Joseph (2003) investigated discrepancies between verbal and nonverbal IQ in children with autism and found children with discrepantly high nonverbal skills relative to verbal skills had greater social impairment independent of absolute level of verbal ability and overall ability.


I tracked down this source. It was interesting that communication and social interaction were most severely affected in the V < NV group, more so than in the V = NV group, even though the V = NV had lower FSIQ than the V < NV group, with V scores comparable to V scores of V < NV group and NV scores significantly lower. I was in the V < NV group as a kid, and I had severe social and communication deficits. I have always thought that gaining verbal skills greatly improved communication and social interaction for me.