Interpretation of high VIQ - PIQ difference - NVLD
VIQ>PIQ is more common in AS. But so is PIQ>VIQ. In fact, if you divide autistics into three groups based on whether their VIQ and PIQ are 15 points apart and which one's higher, you get roughly a third in each category - VIQ>PIQ, VIQ=PIQ and PIQ>VIQ are about the same frequency.
I think 80% of Asperger population are NVLD. That doesn't quite compute with the above?
If it is different for ASD as a whole or other subgroups than Asperger, aren't we then talking about Non-Verbal individuals?
In that case my left-right theory doesn't really apply.
Also isn't it a bit unclear if IQ measurements apply for non-verbal individuals?
Last edited by mrsmith on 28 Jun 2012, 10:24 am, edited 1 time in total.
VIQ>PIQ is more common in AS. But so is PIQ>VIQ. In fact, if you divide autistics into three groups based on whether their VIQ and PIQ are 15 points apart and which one's higher, you get roughly a third in each category - VIQ>PIQ, VIQ=PIQ and PIQ>VIQ are about the same frequency.
I think 80% of Asperger population are NVLD. That doesn't quite the above?
If it is different for ASD as a whole or other subgroups than Asperger, aren't we then talking about Non-Verbal individuals?
No. HFA are verbal (at least most of their life); many (probably most) people with PDD/NOS (the most diagnosed ASD) are also verbal; etc.
An example of a verbal autistic individual who I'm almost certain has PIQ>VIQ is Temple Grandin. She finds visual and spatial tasks easy, and must translate words into pictures to understand them. She had a language delay, but caught up once she learnt to compensate effectively.
VIQ>PIQ is more common in AS. But so is PIQ>VIQ. In fact, if you divide autistics into three groups based on whether their VIQ and PIQ are 15 points apart and which one's higher, you get roughly a third in each category - VIQ>PIQ, VIQ=PIQ and PIQ>VIQ are about the same frequency.
According to the below article, the communication issues are different with different VIQ- NVIQ, and if prevalence of NVLD is 80%, in Asperger, my theory still stands.
(It is of course very interesting that more severe ASD (Autism) has a different IQ profile, but it also means they are not relevant for the argument for Aspies.
Reg HFA,, 30% NVLD is still quite a high correlation.
****
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/article ... ool=pubmed
Abstract
*****
We investigated the relationship of discrepancies between VIQ and NVIQ (IQ split) to autism symptoms and adaptive behavior in a sample of high-functioning (mean FSIQ = 98.5) school-age children with autism spectrum disorders divided into three groups: discrepantly high VIQ (n = 18); discrepantly high NVIQ (n = 24); and equivalent VIQ and NVIQ (n = 36). Discrepantly high VIQ and NVIQ were associated with autism social symptoms but not communication symptoms or repetitive behaviors. Higher VIQ and NVIQ were associated with better adaptive communication but not socialization or Daily Living Skills. IQ discrepancy may be an important phenotypic marker in autism. Although better verbal abilities are associated with better functional outcomes in autism, discrepantly high VIQ in high-functioning children may also be associated with social difficulties.Link to article
Last edited by mrsmith on 30 Jun 2012, 5:27 am, edited 1 time in total.
It's not uncommon at all for high IQ types to have large differences. You may have a vision problem, however, so you may want to consult with a behavioral/developmental optometrist. A thirty three point V>P split should be no major concern as long as ones vision was properly checked out. If it was close to fifty points, then it would be quite significant.
VIQ>PIQ is more common in AS. But so is PIQ>VIQ. In fact, if you divide autistics into three groups based on whether their VIQ and PIQ are 15 points apart and which one's higher, you get roughly a third in each category - VIQ>PIQ, VIQ=PIQ and PIQ>VIQ are about the same frequency.
Isn't that the normal distribution?
I have been surfing a bit and I find people saying that most professionals think it (NVLD, Alexitthymia) is a right-brain problem, but that they disagree.
I have seen nobody saying/confirming it can be a left-right coordination issue though. Or that high VIQ-PIQ can be a combination of the left-right coordination and weaker right brain.
Actually I have this idea from the Neuro-Psychiatrists, and we talked more about being stuck in one side, than necessarily being stuck on the left side, so perhaps all this different disorders are stuck, but in different ways.
So i think we (NVLD/AS) are stuck on the left side, and this leads to a lack of dynamism, and ...stuckedness.
One example of lack of dynamism can be responding quickly in conversations.
(Often thinking afterwards about what we should have said).
I think stuckedness leads to not being able to finish work in a short time horizon.
Leading to procrastination and difficulty finishing off projects.
(But also perhaps sometimes doing OK if we can "sleep on it").
In my field (IT) often it is important to "flip" and try something else, we would be bad in such areas.
We should be more persistent, which is perhaps more important in other areas.
Before you write something like "but i do know that the idea of left and right brain functional localisation and functional localisation of the brain in general is outdated", please watch:
http://www.ted.com/talks/iain_mcgilchri ... brain.html
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=dFs9WO2B8uI#![/youtube]The Diveded Brain
Corrections
VIQ - Verbal IQ
PIQ - Permormance IQ
NVLD is pretty much defined by a high VIQ-PIQ difference. It also high in ASD, and populations are overlapping.
(But the NVLD population is bigger)
NVLD is quite evenly spread between men and women, while ASD is much more common in boys.
Since ASD not AS has much less of this profile than AS, the overlap is smaller than I though.
Also NVLD not ASD would not be as much higher in women than men as I though.
About the Cerebellum, it seems it is actually Corpus Callosum associated with left-right communication.
It's not uncommon at all for high IQ types to have large differences. You may have a vision problem, however, so you may want to consult with a behavioral/developmental optometrist. A thirty three point V>P split should be no major concern as long as ones vision was properly checked out. If it was close to fifty points, then it would be quite significant.
1 standard deviation in the WISC/WAIS is 15 points. 1.5 SDs is considered significant. 45 pts is 3 SDs, above the 99.9th percentile, so 50 is literally off the chart.
It's not uncommon at all for high IQ types to have large differences. You may have a vision problem, however, so you may want to consult with a behavioral/developmental optometrist. A thirty three point V>P split should be no major concern as long as ones vision was properly checked out. If it was close to fifty points, then it would be quite significant.
1 standard deviation in the WISC/WAIS is 15 points. 1.5 SDs is considered significant. 45 pts is 3 SDs, above the 99.9th percentile, so 50 is literally off the chart.
I think for NVLD the significant difference is 2 standard deviations?
This means that PIQ is in the lower 2.5 percentile compared to the VIQ.
I would find it reasonable that the point difference should be different with a high IQ level, but I have never seen how it is calculated.
I guess they just don't care)
No, the vast majority of people have PIQ and VIQ that are very similar to each other. A difference of 10-15 points between the two is rare. For example, see this study:
http://www3.telus.net/Todd_S_Woodward/pdfs/Base-rates-of-WAIS-R-VIQ-PIQ.pdf
They say that about 84% of psychiatric patients have a VIQ and PIQ within 15 points of each other, and this was a similar rate to an earlier study with the general population. So 16% versus 60% is a pretty large difference.
It's a bell curve, just like total IQ is. If you subtract PIQ from VIQ, most people cluster around 0, and relatively few are at the tails of high discrepancy.
What i wrote was based on the misunderstanding that 15p represented 1 stdev in the difference.
(which would be far less signifficant)
Last edited by mrsmith on 01 Dec 2012, 10:51 am, edited 1 time in total.
I found this article interesting:
Evidence for Latent Classes of IQ In Young Children with Autism Spectrum Disorder
(bolding is mine, italics are my additions)
So, the study is primarily relevant to those who are diagnosed with classic autism.
To summarize, although it is unclear whether distinct subtypes of autism exist, a recurring pattern emerges in which IQ strongly predicts social functioning, adaptive behavior, severity of symptoms, and prognosis (Coplan & Jawad, 2005; Howlin, Goode, Hutton, & Rutter, 2004; Bolte & Poustka, 2002; Liss et al., 2001; Carpentieri & Morgan, 1996).
My note: The scores I got on WAIS have a striking resemblance to this fourth group identified, as my verbal and non-verbal scores are roughly equal, while there is a large split between visual perception scale and processing speed scale, the latter being much lower (processing speed scale is roughly the same as fine motor scale). This supports my notion that my PDD-NOS diagnosis is essentially a HFA diagnosis rather than Asperger's, especially if one considers the NVLD-subtype.
We also found that LCA group membership accounted for significant proportion of the variability of Vineland socialization, communication, daily living skills, and ADI social scores beyond that accounted for by the Mullen verbal IQ and nonverbal IQ scores. This provides additional evidence of the importance of considering IQ in young children with ASD more than simply a single dimension. Indeed, the results presented here suggest that there is more than a simple linear relationship between intellectual functioning and adaptive behavior and autism symptoms, even when independently measuring both verbal and nonverbal intellectual abilities.
The selection of quotes may be a bit arbitrary and subjective, so I suggest reading the whole article. You get the idea, though.
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I tracked down this source. It was interesting that communication and social interaction were most severely affected in the V < NV group, more so than in the V = NV group, even though the V = NV had lower FSIQ than the V < NV group, with V scores comparable to V scores of V < NV group and NV scores significantly lower. I was in the V < NV group as a kid, and I had severe social and communication deficits. I have always thought that gaining verbal skills greatly improved communication and social interaction for me.
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