10 Jul 2012, 9:02 pm
10 Jul 2012, 10:58 pm
Ettina wrote:
Wow, long. That spanned several posts, and I found it a bit hard to follow.
But from what I understand of your argument, I agree with you. In fact, I said much the same in this post. We don't lack empathy, we have a different communication style, and this causes difficulty relating. In fact, even delayed ToM can be explained by this theory - oral deaf kids, and to a lesser extent deaf of hearing have delayed ToM related to the severity of their delay in communication skills. (Deaf of Deaf have no such issues.) Similarly, blind kids have delayed ToM.
What do autistics, deaf and blind all have in common? They communicate differently from most in either verbal, nonverbal or both modalities. The only exception are Deaf of Deaf, who grow up with parents who perceive the world similarly to them. (The logical conclusion should be that autistics with autistic parents should show less severe or no delay in ToM development, but still struggle at relating to NTs. This has not been studied - in fact AS parents and their children haven't been studied much at all.)
But from what I understand of your argument, I agree with you. In fact, I said much the same in this post. We don't lack empathy, we have a different communication style, and this causes difficulty relating. In fact, even delayed ToM can be explained by this theory - oral deaf kids, and to a lesser extent deaf of hearing have delayed ToM related to the severity of their delay in communication skills. (Deaf of Deaf have no such issues.) Similarly, blind kids have delayed ToM.
What do autistics, deaf and blind all have in common? They communicate differently from most in either verbal, nonverbal or both modalities. The only exception are Deaf of Deaf, who grow up with parents who perceive the world similarly to them. (The logical conclusion should be that autistics with autistic parents should show less severe or no delay in ToM development, but still struggle at relating to NTs. This has not been studied - in fact AS parents and their children haven't been studied much at all.)
Yes, you're right here. I've also made that hypothesis.
The posts are a little chaotic, I know.
That's why I want (and have) a relationship with aspies
The research of autism is not very good performed
btbnnyr
Veteran
Joined: 18 May 2011
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,359
Location: Lost Angleles Carmen Santiago
10 Jul 2012, 11:11 pm
10 Jul 2012, 11:22 pm
btbnnyr wrote:
Do NTs have empathy for autistic people? Can they naturally and spontaneously tune into the mental states of autistic people to take the perspectives of autistic people? Do they know the reasons for the mental states of autistic people? Do they consider autism to be a puzzle or enigma?
exactly
They don't know much about my experience of the world, they even called us machines without emotions
11 Jul 2012, 12:53 am
paxfilosoof wrote:
C. evidence against the lack of emapthy in autism
(...)
Any questions? I'll try to answer them.
(...)
Any questions? I'll try to answer them.
I read it carefully, and I can't see an invitation to discuss anything here, your opinion is obviously that Aspies don't lack empathy, and there is a poll here. I really don't have any questions about what you wrote, I prefer to read and question the authors of the sources of this essay instead. To me this seemed more like a lecture where we are allowed to ask questions at the end, if we stay within a set of rules.
My opinion is that Aspies do lack some facets of empathy, but they utilize other facets to compensate. If they compensate successfully or not, is individual, it is a spectrum after all. The IRI test(yes, I mention a test *gasp*
) shows lack of some facets, and strengths in other facets. (ops, I did a joke in there, my bad, I didn't follow the rules )
11 Jul 2012, 1:28 am
11 Jul 2012, 2:30 am
Blownmind wrote:
paxfilosoof wrote:
C. evidence against the lack of emapthy in autism
(...)
Any questions? I'll try to answer them.
(...)
Any questions? I'll try to answer them.
I read it carefully, and I can't see an invitation to discuss anything here, your opinion is obviously that Aspies don't lack empathy, and there is a poll here. I really don't have any questions about what you wrote, I prefer to read and question the authors of the sources of this essay instead. To me this seemed more like a lecture where we are allowed to ask questions at the end, if we stay within a set of rules.
My opinion is that Aspies do lack some facets of empathy, but they utilize other facets to compensate. If they compensate successfully or not, is individual, it is a spectrum after all. The IRI test(yes, I mention a test *gasp*
) shows lack of some facets, and strengths in other facets. (ops, I did a joke in there, my bad, I didn't follow the rules )No you can criticize me if you've read everything what I said...
But many people say something which is obvious and is not helpful.
But you can't say things like this: No, I can't empathize as easy as neurotypicals in my daily life.
Because this is not a prove, it's just saying you can't empathise as easy with people who're different which is obvious.
Every person has difficulties in empathising with people who're different.
"My opinion is that Aspies do lack some facets of empathy, but they utilize other facets to compensate. If they compensate successfully or not, is individual, it is a spectrum after all."
Which facets? utilize other facets? which other facets?
Last edited by paxfilosoof on 12 Jul 2012, 3:34 am, edited 1 time in total.
11 Jul 2012, 2:57 am
Projectile
Snowy Owl
Joined: 26 Jun 2012
Age: 41
Gender: Male
Posts: 128
Location: Auckland, New Zealand
11 Jul 2012, 3:11 am
I think I have found the answer
Empathy is something we feel for others, we do not try and show it if it is not there like NTs
i know that my capacity for empathy is very unusual. I may feel more empathy towards an ant then a person or I may feel sadder about the death of a stranger than a family member. When my Grandmother died I did not feel sad. I felt worse when I saw her so sick and thinking about that now makes me quite sad
I think empathy is linked to karma.
11 Jul 2012, 11:29 am
11 Jul 2012, 12:33 pm
paxfilosoof wrote:
what do you want I say?
I think the test is not scientific.
(...)
This is what I call bad research. Autism studied in a biased way.
I think the test is not scientific.
(...)
This is what I call bad research. Autism studied in a biased way.
What would you change about this research specificly to make it non-biased, and scientific to meet your standards?
paxfilosoof wrote:
They are in a neurotypical world afterall. But this is NOT a prove that autistic people lack in reality cognitive empathy... just with neurotypicals.
(...)
They will automatically say they can't empathise as easy as other neurotypicals, but this would be the same if neurotypicals were in an autistic world.
(...)
They will automatically say they can't empathise as easy as other neurotypicals, but this would be the same if neurotypicals were in an autistic world.
In the psychology field they base abnormalities on the normalities. Since we live in a neurotypical world, that is what our reality is. IF, and only if we lived in an autistic world, I could see your point, but as reality is now, your point is moot.
paxfilosoof wrote:
the cognitive empathy lack is obvious and it's normall autistic people are found to lack this kind of empathy ...
We agree on this part atleast.
But were we differ in opinions are about the total empathy. Since autistic people excel in other facets of empathy, I don't see it as a lack of empathy, it's just not perfectly adjusted to fit in with society. Instead of 4 equally filled glasses of water, there is abit less in 2 of them, and abit more in 2 of them, but still the same amount of water. It gives us a different tune when you hit us with a spoon, but it is a tune we can recognise among ourselves.
11 Jul 2012, 1:24 pm
Blownmind wrote:
paxfilosoof wrote:
what do you want I say?
I think the test is not scientific.
(...)
This is what I call bad research. Autism studied in a biased way.
I think the test is not scientific.
(...)
This is what I call bad research. Autism studied in a biased way.
1. What would you change about this research specificly to make it non-biased, and scientific to meet your standards?
paxfilosoof wrote:
They are in a neurotypical world afterall. But this is NOT a prove that autistic people lack in reality cognitive empathy... just with neurotypicals.
(...)
They will automatically say they can't empathise as easy as other neurotypicals, but this would be the same if neurotypicals were in an autistic world.
(...)
They will automatically say they can't empathise as easy as other neurotypicals, but this would be the same if neurotypicals were in an autistic world.
2. In the psychology field they base abnormalities on the normalities. Since we live in a neurotypical world, that is what our reality is. IF, and only if we lived in an autistic world, I could see your point, but as reality is now, your point is moot.
paxfilosoof wrote:
the cognitive empathy lack is obvious and it's normall autistic people are found to lack this kind of empathy ...
3. We agree on this part atleast.
But were we differ in opinions are about the total empathy. Since autistic people excel in other facets of empathy, I don't see it as a lack of empathy, it's just not perfectly adjusted to fit in with society. Instead of 4 equally filled glasses of water, there is abit less in 2 of them, and abit more in 2 of them. It gives us a different tune when you hit us with a spoon, but it is a tune we can recognise among ourselves.1. What I would change?
a) Be fair about cognitive empathy and just tell people autistic people lack cognitive empathy
more because they're in a world full of neurotypicals. Their difference should not be classified as a disorder but as a difference.
Their should not be indoctrinated of 'neurotypical' behaviour in autistic, which lead autistic people to get depressions...
(social stories are a good example, etc.)
Many of my friends are called 'lack of cognitive empathy' while at the same time probably the neurotypical
population is just showing a bigger cognitive empathy lack to the autistic population. Bullying, being raped, or other abuse are all more common in autistics.
b) Testing it objectively and not subjectively
a questionnaire is not research
You've really NO NO NO NO idea what you're talking about. I've aspie freinds who are being abused by neurotypicals, by their parents and teachers.
SO, you think they deserve it because they live in a neurotypical world?
You've really psychopath traits in my opinion
Do you know people look at empathy defects in autistic brains?
they actually aren't doing research they are just give evidence that the brains of the autistic person are different.
They have no evidence that empathy of the brain of an autistic is a defect.
2. In the psychology field they base abnormalities on the normalities
Yes this is the biggest mistake of abnormal psychology in my opinion. I know the gauss curve etc.
It's not scientific. Because many people are "normal", just different adapted.
Something is not normall because a society does it or the majority of the people do it.
In time of hitler more than 40% vote on hitler, does this idea of the 40% of the population which outnumbered the other voters (not 60%, but a variaton of procents that add to 60%) make hitler a good man, a correct man?
3. You see science and society together, I do not.
Society should embrace all the differences like homosexuality. Asperger Syndrome (wich is obvious just a variation and not a disorder or ilness)
should not be classified as a brain defect, or an empathy defect (cognitive empathy). It should be classified as a variation.
If our society do not accept that asperger syndrome is a variation, aspies of course think of themselves as stupid, defective, etc.
They will be bullied ecause they 'lack empathy', which is of course not the truth.
It's already hard for an autistic to live in a neurotypical world ...
Last edited by paxfilosoof on 11 Jul 2012, 2:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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