You all bore me

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I also believe that difficulties can be helped with coping mechanisms...but to say that they can be "outgrown" completely? I'm not so sure.

We're all different - this is obvious. But just because you feel you can outgrow your disability does not mean the same is true for everyone.

No, anything can't be learned. It's not logical to assert that anything can be learned without actually explaining why this is the case. If you want to argue that anything can be learned by someone, somewhere, I won't argue with that. If you want to say that anything can be learned by a specific person, I have to wonder where you learned that bit of nonsense. Many people have difficulties because of learning disabilities and cognitive disabilities that directly impact and limit one's ability to learn these things, as well as sometimes impacting the ability to develop coping mechanisms to work around them.

I don't know what you mean by "social intuition," so I can't really argue that specifically. What I can tell you is that I have all kinds of knowledge about social situations, but much of it does me no good during social situations, and much of it isn't even accessible to me as knowledge during social situations. My brain still works in fundamentally the same way as it did when I was 18. I know a lot more, and can handle social situations a bit better than I could then, but I can't reprogram my brain so it functions like a neurotypical brain. That will never happen without some kind of external treatment.

I think you're making a category error here in assuming that something worked a certain way for you, and thus it can work the same for everyone. But the fact is that it very likely doesn't. Most of us won't ever grow out of autism, and it's not because we don't try hard enough or don't learn enough, or don't have enough willpower. It's because autism is a spectrum, and not everyone will find learning social skills as easy as some others (apparently like yourself).

Also, please stop misusing logic. Logic doesn't work that way. Calling something logical by itself is not an argument, and definitely not a logical argument. And in this case, the reason learning disabilities exist is because they make it much harder for people to learn the relevant skills. It doesn't make it impossible, but it may mean they will never use those skills in the way a neurotypical (or as you'd say, "normal") person might, nor are they likely to find it easier. I know someone with dyslexia who takes a long time to type out her forum posts. She's never going to be able to speed up the process because the problem is that the process requires the part of her brain that works in an atypical fashion. Similarly, I am never going to have the social skills of a neurotypical because various parts of my brain that are related to social functioning do not work the way they do for neurotypicals.

I want to use a better example, so I'll use ADHD:

ADHD impairs sense of time, planning, organization, ability to control/direct attention, working memory, and other executive functions.

How do you build coping mechanisms for ADHD? Through planning, organization, and time management. Not coincidentally, these tasks are often severely impaired in people with ADHD. What this means in practice is that you will never function like a neurotypical and teach yourself better planning, organizational, and time management skills. Whatever you learn you won't be able to use because you have ADHD.

Autism and social skills is similar.

Some people can and do outgrow ADHD by the time they're 30, although by then it's probably caused sufficient damage. Some people can and do outgrow autistic impairments and function better in society as well. But in both cases these are developmental issues, intrinsic to how one's brain develops and functions, and can't simply be changed by "learning."

how can you say jimi hendrix could not have been diagnosed with aspergers or hfa when there was recently someone on american idol who had aspergers supposedly?
also...the fact that jimi hendrix was on drugs could dramatically effect how a person acts.....

Some people people get worse, some learn how to manage it, but you don't grow out of autism anymore than a plastic plant grows.

Last edited by Silverlight on 19 Jul 2012, 7:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

displaying symptoms and experiencing them are very far apart and two completely different situations.

even then, people that do not need a dx because they have already learned to cope still have autsim, thinking that a dx or a list of symptoms are an exhaustive way to determine mental problems is a bit misguided.
we are talking about a difference of fundemental function, so sure you can mask it but it wont remove it.

you can even reach a point where you experience very little interference or even sensation related to having an ASD(one can desensitize certain things and the available energy and state of mind can be hugely important), only for you to later crash and burn completely

That sounds like a feeling more than a fact.

Is epilepsy mutable because you can't see it? You could argue that EEG's provide a "visible" difference, but then there are brain scanning techniques that are getting closer and closer to mapping ASD differences.

You seem to arguing the usual "free will," where if there isn't a physical hole in a person's head, then they can change any and all facets of themselves by a mere application of will. I suspect that that argument arises in those who have not experienced things that are outside the realm of will (you have get smarter than "will" with such things).

IME, some things are not mutable, but while that can be immeasurably difficult, in some ways it is also more interesting.


Arguments that invoke denial are pointless. I say that you owe me a bacon-lettuce-and-tomato sandwich. If you disagree then you fear giving me a BLT and are in denial about your true motives.

You have no basis to make this claim about Asperger's Syndrome. Other professionals have found that outcome and presentation of adults with AS and adults described as having high-functioning autism are virtually indistinguishable. This is one of the reasons for the shift in the DSM-5 to a single "autism spectrum disorder (ASD)" diagnosis for those who would have previously been diagnosed with AS, autism, or PDD-NOS.

Asperger's Syndrome is - like autism - a developmental disorder which results in scattered development in which those who have it are supposed to reach some milestones (for example, speech) early or on time, but may be delayed in other milestones not covered by the criteria, but will likely match similar development in children diagnosed with autism.



I am not sure how you mean AS is not a "visible tangible difference." When I was diagnosed, my diagnostic report described several rather visible, tangible traits I displayed, some I wasn't even aware of - I was stimming, I did not make eye contact and spent much of the time staring at the clock or out the windows, I showed very little emotional affect and did not react to humor. What is invisible and intangible about these features?

I don't argue that it is immutable. I argued that I cannot outgrow it, nor do I see the point in expending energy to pretend to be neurotypical when the cost to me is actually much greater than simply being myself. You describe some nebulous concept of "learning social intuition" without even explaining what it is, but yet this is supposed to be a solution?

I know for a fact that my autism is mutable, because even over the past year and a half my functioning has fluctuated in response to stress, overload, and recovery from each. When I've worked or gone to college, I would hit a point where I'd have constant shutdowns, often combined with exhaustion from being around so many people and being in environments lit with fluorescent lighting. On some jobs, I would take many more bathroom breaks than I strictly needed just to have a quiet spot where I could recover from overload. As far as school goes, it's frustrating when my ability to attend class is disrupted because I essentially keep "falling asleep" - or rather, shutting down - and missing classes every single day because I had no reserves left with which to deal with everything, and my problems were usually more intense for months or a year or so after losing jobs or leaving college (dropped out three times).

And now you're here saying I could just learn "social intuiton" when a good part of social interaction is essentially invisible to me. Even things I am aware of in theory, and things I can observe on television or in movies, may as well not exist when I'm in a social interaction. And I am supposed to "learn" how to function like an NT situations? How? The way I think, perceive, and process information is unlike an NT's thinking, perception, and processing. I often can't even recognize people if I don't expect to see them. How can I function socially as an NT when I do not function neurologically like an NT? At best, I can pretend, try to "act normal," even though I am only capable of this to a limited degree, and would be exhausted all the time from the effort until I burned out and forgot how, as I have in the past.

Last edited by Verdandi on 17 Jul 2012, 3:30 am, edited 1 time in total.

I really appreciate both of these paragraphs.

I actually function fairly well in the world due to how I have adapted to life. That being said, no, I am not now the same as a neurotypical. I can make conversations and use small talk, but reading body language is still difficult and still require a fair amount of thought to do so. I still have narrow interests, even though I have expanded my horizons. My speech is still tangental a lot of the time and I still don't make direct eye contact for more than a few seconds at a time. Likewise, I still have issues dealing with figurative speech and sarcasm about half the time as it is not always easy for me to read it. I can concentrate fairly well if I am on Adderall and in an educational situation, but that does not mean my mind now pays attention normally. I dislike parties, and while I do not go into meltdowns during them, I am still overwhelmed by the situation when there are more than 3 or 4 people (sometimes more than 1 or 2) in a given situation. Just because I do not have a fear impulse now does not mean I can now handle it like a neurotypical. At best, I just manage not to look odd and hide it better than when I was young. It's important to note that my symptoms are mild and fairly easy to deal with. Most others with autism do not have mild symptoms they can fake their way around. Trying to say that everyone is the same as you and can change just as you did shows you have a very poor Theory of Mind and have a long way to go in order to be able to deal with other people normally.

Please note that nowhere did I ever say that autists should not seek to improve themselves and learn to understand the world around them better. We should, but not everyone has the same ability to adapt. To say otherwise is cruel and insensitive.

Last edited by outofplace on 17 Jul 2012, 3:45 am, edited 2 times in total.

Better to grow into it, than out of it.

Success is defined by those who practice it well, as living life on your own terms.

I'm glad that I wrote them, then.

I'm no expert on jimi....but i am pretty educated on drugs...both in experience and research, heroin and coke can have a definite impact on ones outward appearance as suddenly more social and or neurotypical....conversations that would previously occur choppy/forced/inneffective will suddenly become coherent/natural/effective. LSD and shrooms are similar where as heroine and coke are kind of opposites, in my experience and some others LSD and shrooms have been shown to have a lingering effect of normalcy for a week-month, and pure mdma can sometimes have this effect though i'd say less effectively so. So this appearance as normal could have simply been drug induced....but since neither you nor I were there at the time during these interviews nobody can for sure say he was sober or what drug he was on.

His extravagant guitar playing many might say was savant like....

Totally agree

I'm one of those relatively "well adapted" adult aspies. Yes you can learn all sorts of things and utilize your intelligence to analyze social behaviors. (Please note that this method is about 10X slower than using instincts.) That's actually the point of a lot of those therapies and social groups, is to get used to behaving correctly. But it's not natural, it's hard work, very hard work to think, analyze, remember, apply and solve all the time. I always compare that to taking exams or having interviews, where you need to answer correctly. You can focus and do really really well, but you can't perform like that all the time. You get exhausted after a couple hours and need to unwind. And if you get an unexpected question you get stuck, "Oh dear, I don't know which stock phrase to use, what to do?" Because you know your own answer is never the "correct one".

So I can pretend I'm normal, but inside I'm still not, because when I'm relaxed my real self come out. I can do all the right things but I don't really "get" the point of doing them. Plus my "normal" behaviors can never last longer than a few hours anyway. I've always said social skills is acting.

*If you're really NT, do aspies seem to behave like this: Sometimes they seem very sweet and caring, say smart things and nice words to cheer you up, sometimes they just grumble about everything and don't listen to you, sometimes they hardly respond to anything you say, and sometimes they seem to be avoiding you as much as possible, and have the "do not disturb" look on their faces. If you ask my mom, that's how she'll describe me, and conclude that I'm odd and inconsistent.

Last edited by y-pod on 17 Jul 2012, 6:55 am, edited 1 time in total.

Clearly not everyone with AS gets better at social things, or how to act and or become more aware of social cues.......I haven't really, I have the same old issues with interaction I did as a kid, except I guess I used to not respond and walk away sometimes when people tried to talk to me and I don't typically do that anymore and I am not sure why I did.