Is this example over-reading the non-verbal?

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DrPenguin
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19 Jul 2012, 11:42 am

Moondust wrote:

Ok, this is off-topic, but so many here have addressed this part, that I will relate to it, even if it's not what I'm asking.

I do suspect there's a hidden agenda, and a nasty one from the son towards the mother. That's why I'm very pissed at him, even beyond the fact that he was a nasty friend to me way back when. I suspect he's taking his own interests into account only, and making his mother part with her very little money on an illusion of a trip that will give very little to her. She's recently widowed, and the son (again, my suspicion) thinks he can kill 2 birds of one shot: get to do his own thing here with his friends, while taking the mom out to distract herself and so "fulfill his duty" as a son and gain points with her. On top of things, they're counting on it that I'll take them around, and I feel it's very rude to tell me "nothing can be done about the dates" when he knows that on those dates I'll have to make huge efforts and waste enormeous energy and money to be able to take them around even a bit, because you could say the country is closed down that week and, again, they know it from my extensive and detailed emails.

I'm so angry now that I don't even care if I made a ToM mistake with my answer. But I AM curious as to whether this was a ToM mistake, just for my own personal knowledge.

Edited to add:
It's also incredibly rude of him not to answer me, because in my email I also offered all my support if they decide to come on those dates anyway, and I even offered to book them a hotel in a town that's not closed down that week (the only one in the country, and the most important one for tourists to visit). I told them to let me know urgently, because the place fills out very fast and it'll be a nightmare for me to find rooms there for them if they decide to take the idea. Some people do this to me, they let me know too late and then I spend days on the phone begging for rooms in the hotels. This is soooo unfair and inconsiderate, that if they ever write me again and take me up on the idea of the hotel, I'll just ignore the email and forget about them. I don't get anything for all the trouble, that's for sure.

I'd think the mom would appreciate the time away especially with the son even if it was to Battersea dogs home and she was allergic to fur. He would feel like he's being altruistic towards his mother (she could have said no) but neither would want the other around 100% of the time so will get time to spend with his friends he doesn't see often. His mom will be happy that he's enjoying himself and she can get a break. I know as a US friend and her mom went to Dublin for there holiday of a lifetime, the mom wanted me there as much as the daughter. I enjoyed showing them the real city (not just all the touristy bit but also the hidden gems that normally they would never see), got to spend time with my friend and it does give you an interesting overview to a place you think you know well.

Was the same for me in the US or France, experiencing it as a local having one as a friend showing you around the day to day stuff, is as interesting as the big things like castles (can't believe I typed that, old obsession with castles). Even places I thought I knew reasonably well like Philly or Paris were different having someone that lived there around.

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Moondust
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19 Jul 2012, 11:47 am

DrPenguin, in that case I'm glad they'll feel my absence. :-) Deciding to ignore my most basic needs is perfectly ok and I respect the decision, but alas it has a price.

Edit to add: the mother is elderly and bringing her to a foreign country on the other end of the world during the ONE week of the year when it's a huge problem even to call an ambulance or see a doctor if needed is terribly selfish.

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Last edited by Moondust on 19 Jul 2012, 11:50 am, edited 1 time in total.

DrPenguin
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19 Jul 2012, 11:50 am

Moondust wrote:

TD, I feel that they were too inconsiderate of MY needs so I don't feel like making any efforts at all for them now. At the very least, they could've said something like "if you can't join or help us because of the very difficult dates, we will understand", (let alone "what would you like us to bring you from here?", God forbid).

Can definitely understand that one

and I've yet to see anyone be that considerate (they'd assume you'd enjoy doing it and not even consider an alternative as your original reply could be read as I'll do it but its a bad choice of dates) . Always lived around NT's and beginning to think its not us with the problem, people on here are far more considerate and honest than I'm used to dealing with.

Moondust
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19 Jul 2012, 11:55 am

DrPenguin, I do enjoy showing my country, very much, but not on the ONE difficult week of the year. I made this clear when I told them I wouldn't be able to travel back and forth during this week, I'd need the mom to let me share her hotel room for at least one night (a request they totally ignored).

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DrPenguin
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19 Jul 2012, 11:58 am

Moondust wrote:

DrPenguin, in that case I'm glad they'll feel my absence. :-)

Deciding to ignore my most basic needs is perfectly ok and I respect the decision, but alas it has a price.

If there anything like my mates they'll contact you at the last moment, say 'well I was going to email you' everything in chaos, expect me to sort it and when its all sorted, they won't notice they've done anything wrong. Some people take it personally, but I've always felt I'm making allowances for there mental problems/eccentricities as they try to do for me (often without realising it (got them well trained but they do pee on the rug occasionally))

Moondust
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19 Jul 2012, 12:08 pm

[quote="DrPenguin]they'll contact you at the last moment, say 'well I was going to email you' everything in chaos, expect me to sort it and when its all sorted, they won't notice they've done anything wrong.[/quote]

This is so true and well said ! ! And that's what I've been trying to avoid all along with my detailed emails.

I don't experience the same consideration from them as you do from your friends, that's why I don't intend to make any efforts to solve their mess if I ever hear from them again.

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DrPenguin
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19 Jul 2012, 12:15 pm

Moondust wrote:

If you can't make it then you can't make it. Put that in the email with the info on what they can do during the week there there, suggest something he would like, and the appology could be something like soz, was just a little upset as I really wanted to see you guys and show you around why they have to have the bloody 'y' that week, sods law etc. have added some places that will be open, hope the info helps. (y = reason everythings shut).

Doesn't rub in the choice of week is his fault but emphasized that you want to be there and its the situation y stopping you and it bothers you that you can't make it (care about them, without saying it) and if he is being a prat deliberately the info will show that your taking the higher ground and still helping. Short, sweet saying nothing. meanings within meanings and nothing exactly what it means (took me ages to learn this and it still gives me headaches hate how my mates do it without even trying, but wish it wasn't necessary.

DrPenguin
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19 Jul 2012, 12:47 pm

Moondust wrote:

This is so true and well said ! ! And that's what I've been trying to avoid all along with my detailed emails.

I don't experience the same consideration from them as you do from your friends, that's why I don't intend to make any efforts to solve their mess if I ever hear from them again.[/quote]

Wouldn't use considerate as word to describe them annoying a'holes possibly (they do annoy me (1/2 the time on purpose) but I do melt down or go data zombie on them for days, but I do know that if I need help they'd drop everything to help me and I'd do the same for them.

One of the biggest problems I have (now know its probably the AS) is that I don't pick up the subtle body language/interpretations and they can't understand mine especially positives when im depressed. Like when x had done something nice for y and x just stands there and says don't mention it. There can be a whole conversation of ... I really appreciate what you did ... was going to do it anyway ... but I am really grateful.. and then to 'don't mention it' with only the last part voiced. Had to have that one explained to me, my response would be to walk off and enjoy what they did (for me saying I really really appreciate it, thanks, cant wait im so happy but only to those who know me.

Me an my old house mates interactions was a lot like http://street-howitzer.tumblr.com/post/ ... m-and-bbcs It was a mate pointing out that I was a higher functioning sociopath (non existent) like Holmes that led me to suspect I had AS (Have similar traits)

PS love cats but they don't go well with Physics they don't like the box you have to put them in. They should tell you that Schrodinger cats a thought experiment :wink:

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ToughDiamond
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19 Jul 2012, 2:07 pm

Moondust wrote:

Sounds to me like you're piecing it together that you're being treated unfairly, and from what you've written I'd say you're justifiably angry.

It seems that there's been a bit of push and shove over these dates.........I think I was wrong about the length of your email overloading him......so my next guess is that by marshalling your arguments well and having a lot of them, there wasn't a lot he could say apart from OK, which he isn't doing so far. Obviously I haven't seen the actual messages, so I can't be sure of much, but it seems to me that in his email he sought to give you no choice, and, having been pushed into a corner, you countered. Did he give any reasons for wanting it his way?

You remember him as being nasty back in the day. Did his behaviour use to include the same kind of thing, i.e. "I must have my way" ?

Forgive my guessing if it turns out to be off target. You say people have seemed to take advantage of you like that before, getting you to do a lot of running around.........I think a lot of us are sometimes trapped in our own nice behaviour, trying to be what everybody ought to be, and finding out that not many people automatically reciprocate. I think about that a lot because I hate being cruel (which is not to say I never am) but I think I somehow set myself up with it a lot. Does that sound like you?

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19 Jul 2012, 2:36 pm

DrPenguin, I'll do exactly as you say. Thank you for that, because I'm horrible at that kind of NT double-speak! I'll even rehearse it.

TD, indeed I didn't get any reasons why it has to be on those dates. My hunch is that the flights are a lot cheaper than the rest of the year that specific day, as it's the ONE day of the year no one in the whole world wants to land here, so the planes are flying back home empty (25% of their 8-day stay here it's even forbidden by law to get out of the house (except on foot), so only crazy people would come to do tourism that week).

As to how he used to be before, I never had such a problem with him back then because I was always such a sucker. We aspies have a problem with reciprocity, so some of us unfortunately often err on the side of too much to compensate. I've completely changed since then.

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ToughDiamond
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19 Jul 2012, 4:12 pm

You mean you always co-operated so he never used to stand out as being pushy? Maybe if he remembers you as compliant, that would explain why he assumed he could just foist his plan onto you?

Yet you remember him as somehow nasty.

DrPenguin
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19 Jul 2012, 4:22 pm

[quote="Moondust"]DrPenguin, I'll do exactly as you say. Thank you for that, because I'm horrible at that kind of NT double-speak! I'll even rehearse it.

(25% of their 8-day stay here it's even forbidden by law to get out of the house (except on foot), so only crazy people would come to do tourism that week).

I used to want to live on the channel Islands when I was younger (500 people and cars are banned) so it sounds ideal to me.

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You are very likely an Aspie

ToughDiamond
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19 Jul 2012, 5:23 pm

DrPenguin wrote:

I used to want to live on the channel Islands when I was younger (500 people and cars are banned) so it sounds ideal to me.

I liked Herm for that when I went there ages ago. No cars at all. Very small island. I was disappointed that they had a couple of tractors until I saw how steep the road was up from the quay. Air pollution was very low so the stars were a lot clearer than most of the mainland. Huge moths.

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19 Jul 2012, 7:17 pm

I love the silence without any motor noise. What I like the most is that I live very close to the main highway, so on those days I go and sit in the middle of the highway and have a picnic! :-)

And TD, I think you're right, I hadn't thought about it, but now that you mention it I see, he remembers the old me, doesn't know the new me, not having had any contact with me all these years. I've changed so much ever since I've discovered there's such a thing as the non-verbal, that not even my brother could recognize me when he tried to renew contact with me after several years. I now have developed an (artificial) ToM, so I'm a different person.

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ToughDiamond
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20 Jul 2012, 4:01 am

Moondust wrote:

he remembers the old me, doesn't know the new me, not having had any contact with me all these years. I've changed so much ever since I've discovered there's such a thing as the non-verbal, that not even my brother could recognize me when he tried to renew contact with me after several years. I now have developed an (artificial) ToM, so I'm a different person.

I've been looking for that for most of my life. Before the DX I had no words for it but I always sensed there was something missing that I had to find, yet even back then I was making some kind of headway. Writing is great for learning these skills because there's more time to ponder the eternal question "what's REALLY going on here?" I take a lot of heart from what Dad used to say about me - "you might take a bit longer to work things out, but you get there, and when you do, you understand it better than most." I guess that's because so much of it has to go through the consciousness where it's scrutinised, instead of the usual NT route which is a lot more glib and hazy.

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20 Jul 2012, 5:05 am

Great point for a new thread...

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