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naturalplastic
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11 Aug 2012, 8:30 am

Verdandi wrote:
AutisticBelle wrote:
I don't understand racism. I just don't, even though people have explained it to me again and again, I've read articles and such, but I just don't get it. To me, it makes no real difference whether you're black, white, yellow, beige, or even freaking blue.


You don't get racism, but you just said something kinda racist. I am not saying this to condemn you, because just about everyone says something racist in their lifetimes, usually several times.

In this case, you referred to colors that do not occur on humans naturally. Blue people do not exist. (link) That link explains why it's problematic to invoke strangely colored people when discussing race. You personally may not hold the intentions described in the post, but because some people do have and express those intentions, it's best to avoid coming across like that.

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Everyone is shaped the same way and the organs are all the same and the general pattern seems to be the same. The materials might be different, but thats it.


No, the materials are the same too. But the experiences are different. I don't mean that all black people or all Asian people or whoever have identical experiences. I mean that black people in the US, for example, are likely to have experienced a lot of racism that white people do not experience - at least not from the receiving end, since so many white people do perpetrate racism - and that is an important difference. Not a difference inherent to being black (because race is a social construct), but a difference imposed on black people by white people.

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I was just wondering if this is due to being Autistic, or if I'm missing some sort of understanding that most other people have built in. Is anyone else indifferent to this aspect of society?


Racism isn't built in. It's taught. It's part and parcel of every part of society (although it may take different forms in different societies).

Anyway, I think one's understanding and interaction with oppressive beliefs and attitudes is definitely affected by autism, but I do not think autism prevents anyone from holding and expressing oppressive beliefs and attitudes.


Talking about hypothetical "blue people" is racist?

What kind of nonsensical crap is that?

Its acceptable hyperbole and poetic liscence to make her point. The point being that if you happened to be white and you cant tolerate a black family moving in the nieghborhood- you're probably going to be even less tolerate of a blue skinned family- but even blue skin wouldnt bother her.

How is that a problem?



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11 Aug 2012, 8:35 am

Humans are animals, and animals view 'different' as a threat to survival. Competition for food (or other resources); being killed as prey, etc. But all other animals don't moralise or worry about it.

Humans do. We have an extra development to our brains. We analyse. We value. We establish, as groups, what we find acceptable and not acceptable.

For most of our history, we've feared, fought, demonised 'the different'. The funny thing though, probably not other races though. A thousand years ago, when would the average white person have met the average yellow man? Most of the fighting was against other members of the same race. The differences were most likely just different tribes, over the same resources. That's just the reality of limited mobility.

When racism became a problem, as just one more example of 'the different', was not only when the different races met, but only when the meetings were problematic. Inter-racial trading happened, often amicably.

The last several centuries have seen more racism as tribal and feudal localised identities gave way to nationalism. This is a result of expansionism and imperialism, and the inevitable hate that goes with preying on others.

But if one thing is constant, it's 'change'. The more knowledge we get, through science, the less justification there can be for racism. For one thing, we now know that there is only one surviving human species - Homo sapiens. Benny Hill, Jacky Chan, Morgan Freeman... all Homos.

There's value in fearing 'the different'. There are dangerous people in the world. But racism is just laziness. Chances are that the serial killer who just attacked you was the same race as you, and the people who saved you were of some other race.

My wife is a different 'race'. But she speaks the same dialect of the same language as me because she was born in the same country as me and is of the same culture as me (Australian).


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Verdandi
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11 Aug 2012, 8:36 am

CyclopsSummers wrote:
Nevertheless, I am mostly indifferent to race or skin colour. That's why I will continue to say, "it doesn't matter to me if someone's brown, white, red, or bright green." It's not so much about throwing fantasy colours in there to trivialise ethnicity and racism, it's a bit like PennyDreadful says, to encompass everything- including a hypothetical purple- or blue-skinned person. It's throwing the ball back into the court of whoever took issue: 'Why does it matter to YOU if someone is black, white, or Navy blue? It's not relevant to me!' I find racism to be an issue of dire importance to address and combat, but my personal attitude toward race/ethnicity is in fact the backbone of my anti-racist beliefs.


I tried to say I didn't think that's what PennyDreadful meant by it, either. I wrote that she may not hold those intentions. I was relaying what I had read elsewhere about that particular type of statement, not trying to lay down the law.

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Lastly, ethnicity is not only marked by skin colour, but by other physical attributes (facial features, body build, hair) as well. Conversely, within a single ethnic group, various tones of skin may occur. Equating ethnicity with skin colour may be as cavalier an act as listing green, blue, and silver after existent skin colours is perceived to be in the blog entry you linked to.


Did I equate ethnicity to skin color?

naturalplastic wrote:
Talking about hypothetical "blue people" is racist?

What kind of nonsensical crap is that?

Its acceptable hyperbole and poetic liscence to make her point. The point being that if you happened to be white and you cant tolerate a black family moving in the nieghborhood- you're probably going to be even less tolerate of a blue skinned family- but even blue skin wouldnt bother her.

How is that a problem?


Read the post I linked. I am not saying "Never say that again, and you are a horrible racist." I just said "That was kinda racist, and here's why."



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11 Aug 2012, 9:36 am

Verdandi wrote:
I tried to say I didn't think that's what PennyDreadful meant by it, either. I wrote that she may not hold those intentions. I was relaying what I had read elsewhere about that particular type of statement, not trying to lay down the law.

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Did I equate ethnicity to skin color?


No, what you did was imply that AutisticBelle was -consciously or subconsciously- admitting to racism by listing the unrealistic colours. You were the first one in this thread who attacked her on that statement:

Verdandi wrote:
AutisticBelle wrote:
I don't understand racism. I just don't, even though people have explained it to me again and again, I've read articles and such, but I just don't get it. To me, it makes no real difference whether you're black, white, yellow, beige, or even freaking blue.


You don't get racism, but you just said something kinda racist. I am not saying this to condemn you, because just about everyone says something racist in their lifetimes, usually several times.

In this case, you referred to colors that do not occur on humans naturally. Blue people do not exist. (link) That link explains why it's problematic to invoke strangely colored people when discussing race. You personally may not hold the intentions described in the post, but because some people do have and express those intentions, it's best to avoid coming across like that.


If one takes offence at the listing of blue, purple etc. among skin colours that do exist, they should mention that they're offended, so that the person who used the phrase can explain why they expressed themselves thusly. They're going to have to be believed on their word if they say that they had no racist intentions whatsoever -EVEN if they do- since you can't just project an assumed intention upon your conversation partner simply to suit your own purposes of pressing your own opinion- those kinds of tactics demonstrate a certain disrespect toward the opinion of the other.

The blog post itself makes a grand generalisation about the motivations behind using the phrase in question, and goes on to dismiss all other possible intentions, imply subconscious racism, imply that all users of the phrase are Caucasian, discourage use of the phrase altogether, and attract a drove of commenters all jumping on the bandwagon to get on a moral high horse.

I hope the tone of this post is not overly emotional, but I find it difficult to rephrase it. Cliché as it sounds, I mean no offence with it toward you, Verdandi.


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11 Aug 2012, 9:39 am

I even don't understand racism. As someone explained on page 1, it's emotional and it's just "that person is different".

I've received racial abuse from a young age, because I'm a red head/ginger.

I don't understand what's wrong with a simple hair colour? People dye their hair the same colour as my natural hair colour, but they don't get bullied for it. The world is stupid.

I dye mine now though because of the abuse I got for it, and it's been 1 less thing to be picked on in life about.



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11 Aug 2012, 9:43 am

DoniiMann wrote:
Humans are animals, and animals view 'different' as a threat to survival. Competition for food (or other resources); being killed as prey, etc. But all other animals don't moralise or worry about it.

Humans do. We have an extra development to our brains. We analyse. We value. We establish, as groups, what we find acceptable and not acceptable.

For most of our history, we've feared, fought, demonised 'the different'. The funny thing though, probably not other races though. A thousand years ago, when would the average white person have met the average yellow man? Most of the fighting was against other members of the same race. The differences were most likely just different tribes, over the same resources. That's just the reality of limited mobility.

When racism became a problem, as just one more example of 'the different', was not only when the different races met, but only when the meetings were problematic. Inter-racial trading happened, often amicably.

The last several centuries have seen more racism as tribal and feudal localised identities gave way to nationalism. This is a result of expansionism and imperialism, and the inevitable hate that goes with preying on others.

But if one thing is constant, it's 'change'. The more knowledge we get, through science, the less justification there can be for racism. For one thing, we now know that there is only one surviving human species - Homo sapiens. Benny Hill, Jacky Chan, Morgan Freeman... all Homos.

There's value in fearing 'the different'. There are dangerous people in the world. But racism is just laziness. Chances are that the serial killer who just attacked you was the same race as you, and the people who saved you were of some other race.

My wife is a different 'race'. But she speaks the same dialect of the same language as me because she was born in the same country as me and is of the same culture as me (Australian).


This is a very insightful post.


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Verdandi
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11 Aug 2012, 10:57 am

CyclopsSummers wrote:
No, what you did was imply that AutisticBelle was -consciously or subconsciously- admitting to racism by listing the unrealistic colours. You were the first one in this thread who attacked her on that statement:


How on Earth was that an attack? I didn't say AutisticBelle was racist (not that this is an attack either). I said that she posted something that was a bit racist, and that just about everyone says something racist at some point.

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If one takes offence at the listing of blue, purple etc. among skin colours that do exist, they should mention that they're offended, so that the person who used the phrase can explain why they expressed themselves thusly. They're going to have to be believed on their word if they say that they had no racist intentions whatsoever -EVEN if they do- since you can't just project an assumed intention upon your conversation partner simply to suit your own purposes of pressing your own opinion- those kinds of tactics demonstrate a certain disrespect toward the opinion of the other.


I didn't say AutisticBelle had racist intentions, and in fact said "you personally may not hold the intentions described in the post."

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The blog post itself makes a grand generalisation about the motivations behind using the phrase in question, and goes on to dismiss all other possible intentions, imply subconscious racism, imply that all users of the phrase are Caucasian, discourage use of the phrase altogether, and attract a drove of commenters all jumping on the bandwagon to get on a moral high horse.

I hope the tone of this post is not overly emotional, but I find it difficult to rephrase it. Cliché as it sounds, I mean no offence with it toward you, Verdandi.


While complaining about me assigning intentions that I didn't assign to anyone, you assigned intentions to me that I stated I did not have.



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11 Aug 2012, 10:58 am

MightyMorphin wrote:
I've received racial abuse from a young age, because I'm a red head/ginger.


I've received abuse because of my red hair as well, but that's not racial abuse. That's just people being jerks.



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11 Aug 2012, 10:58 am

OP: I don't get it either. Regardless of where it stems from its irrational.



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11 Aug 2012, 2:49 pm

Just because something you said might be racist, doesn't mean you are a racist, and I don't think Verdandi was calling her racist (correct me if I'm wrong). These kinds of phrases are floating around and people pick them up without analyzing what might actually lie behind their popularity. People who are not the target of some type of prejudice aren't usually very good at detecting it. That doesn't mean the person who said it wouldn't disagree with the underlying racist (or sexist, or homophobic, etc.) statement if it was pointed out to them.
Anyway, that was an interesting link. I always found the multicolored people lists slightly annoying, but for no particular reason I could put my finger on. How it can sound dismissive or trivializing, though, is something I can definitely see now that it's been pointed out.



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11 Aug 2012, 2:53 pm

I probably am a racist, given all the extra meanings it has to the left in today's society - who are usually the loudest criers of the "racist" accusation.

To most normal people though, I'm not. Funny, that.



AutisticBelle
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11 Aug 2012, 3:44 pm

Verdandi wrote:
AutisticBelle wrote:
I don't understand racism. I just don't, even though people have explained it to me again and again, I've read articles and such, but I just don't get it. To me, it makes no real difference whether you're black, white, yellow, beige, or even freaking blue.


You don't get racism, but you just said something kinda racist. I am not saying this to condemn you, because just about everyone says something racist in their lifetimes, usually several times.

In this case, you referred to colors that do not occur on humans naturally. Blue people do not exist. (link) That link explains why it's problematic to invoke strangely colored people when discussing race. You personally may not hold the intentions described in the post, but because some people do have and express those intentions, it's best to avoid coming across like that.

Quote:
Everyone is shaped the same way and the organs are all the same and the general pattern seems to be the same. The materials might be different, but thats it.


No, the materials are the same too. But the experiences are different. I don't mean that all black people or all Asian people or whoever have identical experiences. I mean that black people in the US, for example, are likely to have experienced a lot of racism that white people do not experience - at least not from the receiving end, since so many white people do perpetrate racism - and that is an important difference. Not a difference inherent to being black (because race is a social construct), but a difference imposed on black people by white people.

Quote:
I was just wondering if this is due to being Autistic, or if I'm missing some sort of understanding that most other people have built in. Is anyone else indifferent to this aspect of society?


Racism isn't built in. It's taught. It's part and parcel of every part of society (although it may take different forms in different societies).

Anyway, I think one's understanding and interaction with oppressive beliefs and attitudes is definitely affected by autism, but I do not think autism prevents anyone from holding and expressing oppressive beliefs and attitudes.



Sorry if I confused you. By talking about blue people I was being sarcastic (Something I am still trying to do well :oops: ), and by material I was speaking metophorically, comparing the color of peoples skin to different colors of fabric (I enjoy sewing, so it was a metephor that made sense to me), not genetic materials, or things like that.
Anyway, thank you for reading my post so closely, and pointing such things out. :D Sorry if I caused offense, because I never meant to :cry:



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11 Aug 2012, 3:51 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Verdandi wrote:
AutisticBelle wrote:
I don't understand racism. I just don't, even though people have explained it to me again and again, I've read articles and such, but I just don't get it. To me, it makes no real difference whether you're black, white, yellow, beige, or even freaking blue.


You don't get racism, but you just said something kinda racist. I am not saying this to condemn you, because just about everyone says something racist in their lifetimes, usually several times.

In this case, you referred to colors that do not occur on humans naturally. Blue people do not exist. (link) That link explains why it's problematic to invoke strangely colored people when discussing race. You personally may not hold the intentions described in the post, but because some people do have and express those intentions, it's best to avoid coming across like that.

Quote:
Everyone is shaped the same way and the organs are all the same and the general pattern seems to be the same. The materials might be different, but thats it.


No, the materials are the same too. But the experiences are different. I don't mean that all black people or all Asian people or whoever have identical experiences. I mean that black people in the US, for example, are likely to have experienced a lot of racism that white people do not experience - at least not from the receiving end, since so many white people do perpetrate racism - and that is an important difference. Not a difference inherent to being black (because race is a social construct), but a difference imposed on black people by white people.

Quote:
I was just wondering if this is due to being Autistic, or if I'm missing some sort of understanding that most other people have built in. Is anyone else indifferent to this aspect of society?


Racism isn't built in. It's taught. It's part and parcel of every part of society (although it may take different forms in different societies).

Anyway, I think one's understanding and interaction with oppressive beliefs and attitudes is definitely affected by autism, but I do not think autism prevents anyone from holding and expressing oppressive beliefs and attitudes.


Talking about hypothetical "blue people" is racist?

What kind of nonsensical crap is that?

Its acceptable hyperbole and poetic liscence to make her point. The point being that if you happened to be white and you cant tolerate a black family moving in the nieghborhood- you're probably going to be even less tolerate of a blue skinned family- but even blue skin wouldnt bother her.

How is that a problem?


:D Thank you! I'm glad you got my clumsily protrayed hypothetical rainbow people. :lol:



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11 Aug 2012, 4:58 pm

Anyway, I, for one, am glad to see that AutisticBelle has no prejudice against draenei or trolls. :lol:



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11 Aug 2012, 5:03 pm

Verdandi wrote:
MightyMorphin wrote:
I've received racial abuse from a young age, because I'm a red head/ginger.


I've received abuse because of my red hair as well, but that's not racial abuse. That's just people being jerks.


It is actually classed as racism.



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11 Aug 2012, 5:10 pm

Red hair isn't a race, but if you look up some old anti-Irish cartoons, it certainly seems Irish was once basically seen as a different (and inferior) race by the English. I suppose some anti-ginger sentiment could be an echo of that.
Neanderthals had a gene for red hair (a different one than what appears in modern humans, though). Maybe they were the original hated redheads. :wink:

Also, in case anyone hasn't seen it, here's a video about prejudice.

EDIT: Oh dear, I think I might be hijacking, I'll shush now.