Asperger Syndrome and "Extreme Male Brain" Theory
09 Sep 2012, 12:56 am
Alvin31 wrote:
Quote:
Ganondox wrote:
Another study showed that males with autism had normal testosterone levels, though those with higher levels had more severe features. I'm not sure if it was the same study or another one, but it's results showed males with autism actually don't tend to have a more masculine digit ration, it actually showed the opposite. A study showed males with AS tend to have more androgynous facial features. Another study showed brain scans of people with AS were definitely not hyper-masculine, they were more androgynous with the males with AS having less masculine brains. The extreme male brain theory only takes one factor into account when far more is demonstrated in both autism and sexual differences. Autism is not an extreme male brain
.Another study showed that males with autism had normal testosterone levels, though those with higher levels had more severe features. I'm not sure if it was the same study or another one, but it's results showed males with autism actually don't tend to have a more masculine digit ration, it actually showed the opposite. A study showed males with AS tend to have more androgynous facial features. Another study showed brain scans of people with AS were definitely not hyper-masculine, they were more androgynous with the males with AS having less masculine brains. The extreme male brain theory only takes one factor into account when far more is demonstrated in both autism and sexual differences. Autism is not an extreme male brain
really ?,where do you know that most people with AS tend to have more androgynous facial features.is there any relevant source or statistic about this study ?
http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/22164 ... challenged
I think this is the one.
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whirlingmind
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09 Sep 2012, 11:41 am
Alvin31 wrote:
Autism is linked to the theory of "extreme male brain"
According to this article : http://www.iancommunity.org/cs/understa ... male_brain
The Autism Spectrum: A Preponderance of Males
In many ways, males appear to be more vulnerable to life's hazards than females. For a variety of reasons, both biological and social, they are more prone to death or damage before birth, more likely to suffer accidents or fall victim to violence, and have a shorter average lifespan than females. 1 2 They are also more likely than females to have autism, pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS), Asperger's syndrome, or any other type of ASD. 3
According to this article : http://www.iancommunity.org/cs/understa ... male_brain
The Autism Spectrum: A Preponderance of Males
In many ways, males appear to be more vulnerable to life's hazards than females. For a variety of reasons, both biological and social, they are more prone to death or damage before birth, more likely to suffer accidents or fall victim to violence, and have a shorter average lifespan than females. 1 2 They are also more likely than females to have autism, pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS), Asperger's syndrome, or any other type of ASD. 3
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/ ... =digest_12
Quote:
There is no clear understanding about how many girls and women are being missed – or wrongly diagnosed – and for how long. But that may soon change: the first neuroimaging analysis of women and men, with and without ASD, has been under way for the past two and a half years at King's College's Institute of Psychiatry (IoP) and the Autism Centre at the University of Cambridge. It's hoped this research could provide the clues. The final stage of the project is about to begin, with results expected in months."
"It's very exciting," said Dr Michael Craig, a senior lecturer and honorary consultant at the IoP's department of forensic and neurodevelopmental sciences. "We could well be looking at gender-specific treatments for Asperger's being developed in quite a short period of time."
"The brains of men and women with Asperger Syndrome are more similar to each other than are those of male and female controls, according to a study published in the January issue of the American Journal of Neuroradiology. The results lend support to the extreme male brain’ theory of autism, the researchers say."
"The difference in the volumes of total white matter and local gray matter between men and women is smaller in the group with Asperger syndrome than in controls. This suggests that the brains of women with the syndrome have more male’ brain characteristics than those of controls, the researchers say.
Among controls, the men’s brains also have greater connectivity as measured by the flow of water through the brain than the women’s brains in a number of regions, including the corpus callosum, which connects the two hemispheres. This difference in connectivity between males and females is also smaller among the brains of individuals with Asperger syndrome.
"It's very exciting," said Dr Michael Craig, a senior lecturer and honorary consultant at the IoP's department of forensic and neurodevelopmental sciences. "We could well be looking at gender-specific treatments for Asperger's being developed in quite a short period of time."
"The brains of men and women with Asperger Syndrome are more similar to each other than are those of male and female controls, according to a study published in the January issue of the American Journal of Neuroradiology. The results lend support to the extreme male brain’ theory of autism, the researchers say."
"The difference in the volumes of total white matter and local gray matter between men and women is smaller in the group with Asperger syndrome than in controls. This suggests that the brains of women with the syndrome have more male’ brain characteristics than those of controls, the researchers say.
Among controls, the men’s brains also have greater connectivity as measured by the flow of water through the brain than the women’s brains in a number of regions, including the corpus callosum, which connects the two hemispheres. This difference in connectivity between males and females is also smaller among the brains of individuals with Asperger syndrome.
Not sure this agrees with the study you've read. Also, in my personal view, because males already have a male brain, if you think about it this means that the AS male brain would overall be more extreme male brain than a female AS brain.
male + male = extreme male, whereas
female + male = possibly slightly less extreme male brain
This is probably the only reason that the traits may be more apparent in males often, (although not always) and that females face such problems in diagnosis. I don't believe that this means males are more severely affected, only that the traits show up more.
It's not clear from the study I quote whether there is any difference overall between the male and female brain with AS as regards to severity, only that they are more similar to one another in their differences to the control (non AS) group.
And in fact, you could argue that the females must be worse affected because if the 'original' brain is female and it still becomes extreme male in the AS female to the same equivalent as a male with AS, then the severity of the female's AS must be overall greater.
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DX AS & both daughters on the autistic spectrum
musicforanna
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Location: Kansas City, Missouri
12 Sep 2012, 12:59 am
I tend to disagree with the extreme male brain theory, and even though that I am a more "masculine" female in the way that I behave, think, and things like that, that wouldn't give a good explanation to my two very close male friend aspies, who have both told me both that they know they are more feminine than the average male (which is also in line with the way they come across in my observation of them). Both fantasize about being a female, one PMSes worse than his wife does when she's close to her monthly, the other crossdresses in privacy from time to time.
12 Sep 2012, 1:14 am
whirlingmind wrote:
Alvin31 wrote:
Autism is linked to the theory of "extreme male brain"
According to this article : http://www.iancommunity.org/cs/understa ... male_brain
The Autism Spectrum: A Preponderance of Males
In many ways, males appear to be more vulnerable to life's hazards than females. For a variety of reasons, both biological and social, they are more prone to death or damage before birth, more likely to suffer accidents or fall victim to violence, and have a shorter average lifespan than females. 1 2 They are also more likely than females to have autism, pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS), Asperger's syndrome, or any other type of ASD. 3
According to this article : http://www.iancommunity.org/cs/understa ... male_brain
The Autism Spectrum: A Preponderance of Males
In many ways, males appear to be more vulnerable to life's hazards than females. For a variety of reasons, both biological and social, they are more prone to death or damage before birth, more likely to suffer accidents or fall victim to violence, and have a shorter average lifespan than females. 1 2 They are also more likely than females to have autism, pervasive developmental disorder not otherwise specified (PDD-NOS), Asperger's syndrome, or any other type of ASD. 3
http://www.guardian.co.uk/society/2012/ ... =digest_12
Quote:
There is no clear understanding about how many girls and women are being missed – or wrongly diagnosed – and for how long. But that may soon change: the first neuroimaging analysis of women and men, with and without ASD, has been under way for the past two and a half years at King's College's Institute of Psychiatry (IoP) and the Autism Centre at the University of Cambridge. It's hoped this research could provide the clues. The final stage of the project is about to begin, with results expected in months."
"It's very exciting," said Dr Michael Craig, a senior lecturer and honorary consultant at the IoP's department of forensic and neurodevelopmental sciences. "We could well be looking at gender-specific treatments for Asperger's being developed in quite a short period of time."
"The brains of men and women with Asperger Syndrome are more similar to each other than are those of male and female controls, according to a study published in the January issue of the American Journal of Neuroradiology. The results lend support to the extreme male brain’ theory of autism, the researchers say."
"The difference in the volumes of total white matter and local gray matter between men and women is smaller in the group with Asperger syndrome than in controls. This suggests that the brains of women with the syndrome have more male’ brain characteristics than those of controls, the researchers say.
Among controls, the men’s brains also have greater connectivity as measured by the flow of water through the brain than the women’s brains in a number of regions, including the corpus callosum, which connects the two hemispheres. This difference in connectivity between males and females is also smaller among the brains of individuals with Asperger syndrome.
"It's very exciting," said Dr Michael Craig, a senior lecturer and honorary consultant at the IoP's department of forensic and neurodevelopmental sciences. "We could well be looking at gender-specific treatments for Asperger's being developed in quite a short period of time."
"The brains of men and women with Asperger Syndrome are more similar to each other than are those of male and female controls, according to a study published in the January issue of the American Journal of Neuroradiology. The results lend support to the extreme male brain’ theory of autism, the researchers say."
"The difference in the volumes of total white matter and local gray matter between men and women is smaller in the group with Asperger syndrome than in controls. This suggests that the brains of women with the syndrome have more male’ brain characteristics than those of controls, the researchers say.
Among controls, the men’s brains also have greater connectivity as measured by the flow of water through the brain than the women’s brains in a number of regions, including the corpus callosum, which connects the two hemispheres. This difference in connectivity between males and females is also smaller among the brains of individuals with Asperger syndrome.
Not sure this agrees with the study you've read. Also, in my personal view, because males already have a male brain, if you think about it this means that the AS male brain would overall be more extreme male brain than a female AS brain.
male + male = extreme male, whereas
female + male = possibly slightly less extreme male brain
This is probably the only reason that the traits may be more apparent in males often, (although not always) and that females face such problems in diagnosis. I don't believe that this means males are more severely affected, only that the traits show up more.
It's not clear from the study I quote whether there is any difference overall between the male and female brain with AS as regards to severity, only that they are more similar to one another in their differences to the control (non AS) group.
And in fact, you could argue that the females must be worse affected because if the 'original' brain is female and it still becomes extreme male in the AS female to the same equivalent as a male with AS, then the severity of the female's AS must be overall greater.
The the conclusions of the actual study which concluded that there was less difference in the brains of people with AS across genders directly refuted the extreme male brain hypothesis. In the study it says they were looking for an extreme male brain, in the study it says they did not find it. The brains they found were neither masculine nor feminine.
_________________
Cinnamon and sugary
Softly Spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes
Autism FAQs http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt186115.html
12 Sep 2012, 1:59 am
http://www.wrongplanet.net/postxf205809-0-45.html
_________________
Cinnamon and sugary
Softly Spoken lies
You never know just how you look
Through other people's eyes
Autism FAQs http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt186115.html
12 Sep 2012, 2:18 am
Alvin31 wrote:
Quote:
Ganondox wrote:
Another study showed that males with autism had normal testosterone levels, though those with higher levels had more severe features. I'm not sure if it was the same study or another one, but it's results showed males with autism actually don't tend to have a more masculine digit ration, it actually showed the opposite. A study showed males with AS tend to have more androgynous facial features. Another study showed brain scans of people with AS were definitely not hyper-masculine, they were more androgynous with the males with AS having less masculine brains. The extreme male brain theory only takes one factor into account when far more is demonstrated in both autism and sexual differences. Autism is not an extreme male brain
.Another study showed that males with autism had normal testosterone levels, though those with higher levels had more severe features. I'm not sure if it was the same study or another one, but it's results showed males with autism actually don't tend to have a more masculine digit ration, it actually showed the opposite. A study showed males with AS tend to have more androgynous facial features. Another study showed brain scans of people with AS were definitely not hyper-masculine, they were more androgynous with the males with AS having less masculine brains. The extreme male brain theory only takes one factor into account when far more is demonstrated in both autism and sexual differences. Autism is not an extreme male brain
really ?,where do you know that most people with AS tend to have more androgynous facial features.is there any relevant source or statistic about this study ?
http://keithsneuroblog.blogspot.com/2012/08/autism-gender-defiant-disorder.html
Here is a link that has the actual tables from the study referencing androgyny in individuals with Aspergers.
12 Sep 2012, 4:30 am
Ganondox wrote:
The the conclusions of the actual study which concluded that there was less difference in the brains of people with AS across genders directly refuted the extreme male brain hypothesis. In the study it says they were looking for an extreme male brain, in the study it says they did not find it. The brains they found were neither masculine nor feminine.
While the study provides evidence that there may not be a characterized "extreme male brain" determined from brain scans for males with Aspergers Syndrome, the jury is still out on other spectrum disorders, as they are yet to be studied in this type of research. The research does provide some evidence of masculine leaning brain features for females with Aspergers as compared to control group females without the diagnosis of Aspergers.
It's worth noting that Cohen was actually one of the researchers involved in the research on the similarities in brain structure for males and females with Aspergers, linked below. His original research with Manning, linked below, on 2d/4d digit ratio and autism done over a decade ago, showed comparatively higher digit ratio among individuals with Aspergers as compared to those with Autism Disorder, which is reflective of many of the research links provided in this thread. The lowest digit ratios were measured among those with language development problems and co-morbid conditions of intellectual disability.
The link I provided in the previous post, repeated below, regarding androgynous features among those with Aspergers showed slightly higher than average digit ratios among males with Aspergers and slightly lower than average digit ratios among females with Aspergers.
This makes sense in light of the recent research, linked below, done by Whitehouse in Australia that shows language development problems in males are associated with higher than normal levels of prenatal testosterone where the same has a protective value for females, which may be associated with the criteria of no significant language development delays to meet the criteria for Aspergers. Whitehouse's research is reflective of Cohen's early research on 2d/4d digit ratio among those with language development problems in Autism Disorder.
The research referring to similarities in brain structure among those with Aspergers, is also reflective of the 2d/4d digit ratios as slightly higher in males and lower in females with Aspergers Syndrome, found in the tables in the link below. regarding androgynous physical features among males and females with Aspergers.
The link you provided in this thread, repeated below, provides an indication that higher levels of testosterone are associated with those with more severe symptoms of Autism, as opposed to those with Aspergers syndrome, which is in general alignment with the other studies.
The lower digit ratios among those with Autism Disorder studied by Cohen a decade ago are yet to be refuted. When brain scans and measures of androgyny among individuals with Autism Disorder are done the results there may better support Cohen's Extreme male brain theory, among that subgroup of the spectrum.
Considering the impact of prenatal testosterone on brain development and all of these recent findings, it appears that just from the standpoint of hormones and brain development there could be a great deal of difference in the biology of those with Autism Disorder that have language development problems as compared to individuals with Aspergers. But, if high levels of prenatal testosterone protect females from having language development problems, the prenatal testosterone factor doesn't appear to potentially explain the language development problems in females with Autism Disorder.
Potential causal factors associated with hormones may be significantly different among females as opposed to males with some forms of Autism Disorder, and they may be significantly different among females as opposed to males with some forms of Aspergers syndrome. And, at a more detailed level different from individual to individual as a spectrum.
Michelle Dawson's research that measured intelligence with standard IQ tests among individuals with Autism Disorder as compared to those with Aspergers, linked below, provides a general measure of relative personal strengths higher on average in verbal intelligence among those with Aspergers as compared to relative personal strengths higher on average among those with Autism Spectrum Disorder in performance intelligence. These findings could be a reflection of different hormonal influencing factors in prenatal brain development, in general, among some with Autism Disorder as opposed to Aspergers.
Dawson measures of intelligence link:
http://www.plosone.org/article/info%3Adoi%2F10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0025372
Whitehouse language development/prenatal testosterone link:
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2012/01/120125195530.htm
Cohen gender similarities in brain structure among those with Aspergers link:
http://www.ajnr.org/content/33/1/83.full
Physical Androgynous Features among those with Aspergers link:
http://keithsneuroblog.blogspot.com/2012/08/autism-gender-defiant-disorder.html
Higher testosterone levels among those with more severe symptoms link:
http://www.odt.co.nz/news/dunedin/221648/theory-autism-challenged
Cohen/Manning 2001 study on 2d/4d digit ratio/Prenatal testosterone and Autism link:
http://www.autismresearchcentre.com/docs/papers/2002_Manning_etal.pdf
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