Autism and Androgyny

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This is a very interesting topic to me, as I definitely have androgynous whatsits and related gender issues. Which I tend to focus on a bit much.

I'm into things like crossdressing/crossplay, and while I still know little about how to do it properly/well, the one thing I've heard over and over and over again is that due to my face and bodyshape, it should require very little effort for me to pull it off.

My face is kinda femmy, and my bodyshape isnt quite right for a male, at least that's how it seems to me. Alot of guys are all flat planes and hard angles, whereas I'm very..... curvy. And I dont mean curvy as in "fat", since I'm pretty thin; no, I mean curvy as is usually associated with females.

I do get mistaken for a girl at times.



I dont have Aspergers specifically, but I'm on the autistic spectrum. I'd often wondered if it had something to do with all of the gender stuff.

You're lucky. I wish I looked more androgynous. But at least I don't care particularly about my looks--if I looked more androgynous, I might not take advantage of it very much to cross gender lines, even if I could. I'd probably just put on a shirt and pants and not care whether people called me sir or ma'am. Most people who identify as androgynous or genderfluid care more about their looks and gender presentation than that. I'm in the minority; I think of them as more irrelevant than anything else. Instead of playing with gender, I ignore it. Ironically, the fact that I ignore it has made me think more about gender and try to understand why some people identify so strongly and/or think it's so important.

I think it's hard to explain, just in a general sense, to anyone that doesnt already "get" it.

Heck, to be honest, *I* dont know why exactly I consider it so important. I do, though. I've been after a highly androgynous sort of appearance for awhile now, and I can get really freaking frustrated over the fact that I havent quite managed it yet. There are times when I wish the whole thing would just go away.

The whole issue can be pretty strange as a whole, I think.

I attempted to take the "gender association" quotient out of the androgyny formula in the poll I just posted on Asperger's and Androgyny. Unfortunately, I passed the maximum number of poll options to include "other Autism Spectrum Disorder", that I was just as interested in, but am hoping those individuals that identify with other ASD's, that take the effort to measure their 2d/4d ratio, will comment in the post.

I typed in all the poll options before finding out I passed the maximum, but can see where the visual presentation of the poll options would have been overwhelming with the other 14 options.

My (birth) sex is female, my gender is non-binary (tri-gender). I have "passed" as male before, but it would be easier if it weren't for my breasts and hips, but I'm overweight, so baggy clothes and a chest binder/tight sports bra can take care of that.

As for the "2D/4D" thing; my ring finger appears slightly shorter than my index finger but when measured, they are actually the same length (on both hands).

I am female, on the taller side than most (5'9") with a BMI that hovers around underweight regardless of what I eat or do to gain weight. Nearly-flat chest, small ribcage, small waist, average hips, mostly lanky and bony; I wear body hair as a badge of honor and tend towards male-focused clothing. Oh, lower-range monotone vocals too. Yeah, I've got the extremely youthful face. My 2D/4D ratio definitely points to a high testosterone bath whilst I was stewing. I had always wondered if there was a reason for my androgyny and lack of gender identity at times. I've since come to terms with it.

I get mistaken for a boy roughly a quarter of the time by strangers when I go out (which is rarely these days.) When I lived in Seattle, the young, gay males I often encountered (being gay myself) said I was "The prettiest boy-girl they've ever seen" which I found to be quite embarrassing. I also get mistaken for a teenage boy when I take the bus and am reminded to pay youth fare. "That's only $2.50 for you, sir." Hah, I love it honestly. I often play gender dress-up depending on how I feel when I wake up, and wish I had been born male so I could be a drag queen. My inner dialogue is male, predominantly, and there are days in which I just feel male. Would I ever get a gender reassignment? Probably not. I prefer androgyny and gender ambiguity; a girl who feels like a boy that feels like a girl.

Last edited by AinsleyHarte on 17 Nov 2012, 5:32 am, edited 1 time in total.

It's quite hard to say I think.

I do wear dresses and skirts at times, and I like wearing a lot of jewellery and I'm mad on nail art. But most of the time it's jeans, t-shirt & DMs all the way.

Same as makeup, I always wear it, and quite theatrically, for a night out, but on a day-to-day basis I don't bother.

I remove body hair if and when I can be bothered to, last summer I wore shorts and fuzzy legs all the time.

I definitely have more masculine facial features, broad jaw tall forehead etc. and I'm broad-shouldered and small-breasted with a large ribcage. My waist is narrow and my hips broad but even so my body is angular rather than curved. And my ring fingers are longer than my index fingers. I also tend toward getting hair on my face, neck and chest like all the women on my mum's side do.

If I stop and think about it, I'm happy enough with the biological sex I was born with, but it isn't something I could say matters, it just is as it is. As for gender, it isn't something I think about at all, I'm just me and I don't really feel I need the label.

Thanks for the comment, that is why it is so important to actually measure the 2d/4d digit ratio, because the way the fingers are positioned on the hand can definitely make the index finger look shorter when it isn't. I made that mistake, in the first poll I did a couple of years ago, before I realized that my right hand when measured was .93 and my left hand when measured was .96.

Your comment is anecdotal evidence of how varied the androgynous features can be in the same person, which seems to be reflected in the topic article study. Some males have androgynous facial characteristics and masculine looking bodies, as well as low 2d/4d digit ratios on their right hand, which seems to be directed toward the opposite of what you are indicating as far as androgynous features, but almost any combination of characteristics seems likely possible.

I hate to keep going back to the Tim Tebow example, but he is someone most people have come across in a picture or seen in the media. Seeing him talk in an interview, changed my whole perception of what I am culturally conditioned to identify as masculine vs. feminine in the same person, vs. what I caught highlights of on the TV from football games when he was a college athlete, where my perception then from seeing him on the field was that he was hyper masculine, until I saw him talking in the interview, where he seemed more feminine, per facial features, expressions and mannerisms, than some of the females I have known in my lifetime, from my own culturally biased perception of experience.

His sexual orientation has been stereotyped from that, but I don't think that how he or anyone else personally feels per gender or sexual identification, can be determined by a person they have not actually communicated this to. But, the androgynous physical features can be objectively measured on their own merit, without a specific association to the other two factors. I dislike the binary observable gender and sexual orientation stereotypes in part, for this reason. But, culture makes them very difficult to avoid. To me, Tim Tebow destroys those stereotypes in a way I don't think any other public figure has.

The gender/androgyny/sexual orientation spectrum would likely better be identified as a spectrum, but humans don't do well without attempting to box everything in pigeon holes, similar of what has been a source of so much disagreement/argument/confusion over the word "autism" as opposed to a spectrum of human beings identified with that term, that per diagnostic criteria has become more "spectrum like" over the last few decades.

Androgyny appears to be just one more human factor to associate with part of that "autism spectrum". It will be interesting when an attempt is made to study it in a broader context of what is identified as the fuller autism spectrum.

Oops, filled out the wrong bubble.

This (except I'm pretty friggin androgynous-looking).

I am a female who likes to look feminine to a certain extend but I don't think I always behave and feel like a woman. There is something in the way in which my anger flares up and showes itself that is more male than female and that is jus one example Sometimes I just feel like having a good and straightforward fistfight with someone. Horrible!

Sorry to resurrect such an old thread but there has now been a piece of follow-on research
taking the 'gender defiant disorder' paper into account and looking at neuro-anatomical differences
between males and female diagnosed with ASD.

Biological sex affects the neurobiology of autism: http://brain.oxfordjournals.org/content/early/2013/08/08/brain.awt216.full.pdf

This may be the beginnings of a more physical explanation for the high proportion of genderqueer or transgender feelings among us. Obviously subject to future questions, further research, wider studies, yada, yada, yada.

I'm a male, and for the first 4-5 years of my life people that walked past my mum, my sister and myself would ask if we were twins and said that we looked identical. These people usually also thought I was a girl, especially if I had a hat on. I got comments on how feminine I was as I grew older too, and never really built any muscles. I also have feminine movements, small thin hands and feet (my mum calls them office hands) and relatively wide hips for a male which I get annoyed with when people point it out.

I couldn't answer the poll with anything besides 'other' because I'm not diagnosed, nor am I sure if I would be.

Thank you..this has been one of my special interests for a very long time..as a once very androgynous male with Autism...

Unusually enough..though..that changed in midlife..and now i am extremely masculine looking from head to toe...

IT's almost like an epigenetic change..or perhaps..even part of the condition...

However..there would be great difficulty..measuring this longitudinally..as the differences can be subtle as well...

It's almost like i remained a boy for a very long time..and finally matured in later adulthood..much later in my 40's..

I have not heard of anyone else report that here..so maybe my situation is an isolated..oddity...and that certainly would not be

a first for me.....:)

Not surprising at all..though to see the masculinization of females with so called High Functioning Autism per brain structure...

and also see the feminization..of males with so called HighFunctioning Autism as well...

But a question i would have...
IS how much of the autism is environmental in total affect and effect...

As Androgynous looking children are often shunned and verbally abused..

therefore naturally resulting in potential long term problems in reciprocal social communication...

I tend to think...a little of both...

As i know for sure..that people certainly treat a person differently.. still in our overall society..if they fit the cookie cutter ideal of male or female...

as opposed to the circle attempting to fit in the square or the converse...

Been to both places..and the cookie cutter place .. certainly makes life easier...

Even if i still feel no clearly defined gender..inside.....

But one adapts to survive..and if one does not...

oh well.. life ain't fair...

i for one..am glad i found a way to adapt...

IT certainly ain't easy though..autism and androgyny is like a double whammy challenge...:)

But thanks again.. for the link..i will add it to my collection of data..on the issue...

This description fits my life as a young male going through puberty...and even through young adulthood..perfectly...

I too..had thin fingers..hands..feet..and "shapely hips"...

My sister who is diagnosed with Asperger's syndrome in midlife as was my Autism Diagnosis..with a verbal delay until age 5..

in someways..looked more male than i did..in the face...

But per my previous post..when i hit my 40's..that started to change...

And now at 53..i look more masculine that i ever have..at about 6FT and 222LBS..

And actually more masculine than most men..in a military gym i work out at...

So who..knows..the same thing..could happen to you i suppose...

And strange thing is..i had this weird feeling that i was maturing much slower than my peers..much earlier in life...

And people i graduated with .. seriously look 10 to 15 years..older than i do..on average..now....

In the study last Summer on Gender Defiant Disorder..per higher functioning autism..

Another finding was higher naturally occurring levels of DHA..a kind of human growth hormone..

Among older folks with higher functioning autism..as compared to control groups...

Well if so..and this is connected to my experience in midlife..now at 53..and feeling younger than ever before..in my life...

as well as stronger..and more confident...

That phenomenon..if truly correlated with higher functioning autism..

AT least in my case..

Is like hitting the mid-life..jackpot...

instead of crisis..

and i am dead serious about all of this...

And yah..could prove it upon request..as i don't hide anything..and i do mean anything..about myself

online..on the information..highway....

I do want to be a case study..to help other folks..in some way....
anyway.

It's interesting you mention a mid-life change, I'm a bit younger than you at 31 but I was always slow developer as well. I do still seem to look quite young for my age, I still get asked to show my ID when buying a drink in America etc. I had a lot of the, 'Hasn't he got lovely curls, should have been a girl!' type stuff said about me as a young child. Anyway I've always had a fairly mixed gender identity, personally I'd prefer to be female but I've played along with trying to be male and avoided too much contact with anyone of the more macho persuasion who can usually figure out something is 'up' with me, though perhaps not understand exactly what it is.
Well for the last couple of years my female side seems to have been getting stronger, both in terms of how I think and react to situations and in terms of physical things happening to my body like my fat distribution moving away from my waist to my thighs and upper arms.
I seem to be far more preoccupied with sociological things than technological now, and have actually started enjoying chatting with people and spreading ideas around a lot more, to the extent that I am hardly doing what I am 'supposed' to do any more.
Perhaps when the brain eventually gets a chance to mature a bit it begins to impose it's own 'plan' more on the body, I don't know what's going on exactly but hopefully I'm turning into someone I can actually enjoy being.

So yes, I've been following the 'gender defiant disorder' meme spread as well, as I have a rather personal interest in what they discover

Oh and I've also been reading all the Neoteny.org stuff with great interest since I finally 'clicked' onto the full implications of the theory.
Sometimes things like that just 'feel' right somehow, it will be interesting to see if more mainstream science catches on to that any time soon, they are still all out looking for straight genetic and environmental causes of modern conditions, not considering the possibility of epigenetic and hormonal ones.

I think Andrew Lehman may have died from his brain aneurysm, which is very sad considering he may have hit the jackpot in terms of figuring out much of the process behind the development of human societies over history.