2d/4d Digit Ratio: Aspergers and Androgyny

Post Reply New Topic

Yeah, I'm guessing I was too. When I was in the womb, all the normal pregnancy signs pointed towards having a male rather than having a female. My parents never actually had it checked for, and were quite surprised when I was born.

I do show other signs of androgyny too.

That is totally interesting and informative. Thanks so much for taking the time to explain it and convert the math etc. So the lady in question is the hard driving domineering masculine type? The baby boy is a effeminate lazy bum who cant hold a job maybe? This is becoming uncanny. I am on the cusp of normal right? Cept as how I have been corrupted by them two? My mind is running wild here.

I got a 0.986, which if I understand this correctly means my digit ratio is more androgynous than more males... interesting.

Sorry, I don't think I was clear in my communication. A normal bell curve distribution, in this case, is only associated with the measurements, not any indication of what might be considered "normal" personal behavioral traits.

In general lower digit ratios are correlated among males and higher digit ratios are correlated among females. Wiki lists many correlations in the article linked on high digit ratio and low digit ratio.

Not being able to hold a job down is not one of them for males with high digit ratios, nor is a masculine domineering personality type among females with high digit ratio. All the correlations are sourced in more detail on the Wiki page, if one wants to pursue just how strong some of these correlations are on the traits listed there.

Last edited by aghogday on 18 Nov 2012, 12:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

Yes, and that reflects the topic article research that showed an overall higher digit ratio among the males studied with "high functioning" autism as opposed to the control group. Interesting that in that particular study the 2d/4d digit ratio was actually slightly higher on average among the ASD females, than the control group females, even though they measured higher in androgynous head, face and serum testosterone levels.

Could we get an interpreter for non AS folks here? Thanks. Now I am trying to figger out where all this extra testosterone comes from on this deal. Surely not

That's a good question, for the topic article, as higher levels of exposure to prenatal testosterone (from the mother in pregnancy), and higher levels of serum testosterone in adulthood are usually correlated but not in that study.

In women, testosterone is produced by the adrenal glands. In men there are two sources of production, one of which is the adrenal glands. I'm pretty that is what you were asking by the "surely not" phrase followed by the shocked emoticon.

The production of higher levels of testosterone in males and females is influenced by genetics, and environment from the time of prenatal development all the way until death.

The research is very new on this issue with individuals with higher functioning autism. And, warrants a great deal more study to determine the whys of the findings.

Higher stress levels can lead to higher production of cortisol and testosterone among females; that is the most common environmental factor associated with higher levels of exposure to testosterone during pregnancy.

This study showed testosterone levels in the normal range among males, on average with "higher functioning autism", and another study has shown the same general findings among males with "higher functioning" autism, with higher levels of testosterone among males with more "severe" reported symptoms associated with Autism.

That may have been more detail than you were looking for, but I think the most concise answer to your question among females, is the adrenal glands.

Yes I had seen the Wikipedia link prior to your reply, however I still don't understand as it doesn't explain. It really only discusses the meaning of the lower ratio, not higher than normal ratio. Accordingly, if I take the opposite meaning, I must be ultra female (people have said I'm very feminine before). Although this doesn't in any way correlate to AS going by this study, and I've already had a confirmation of AS, plus both children pending assessment. I'm aware that low ratio is said to be only an indicator of risk factor, not a 100% either way, as there will always be subjects who differ and all the causes of autism are not yet known, at least they know more than one gene is implicated.

Wikipedia also said:



So I'm unsure as to how reliable this 2D to 4D ratio research really is.

0.985 right hand
1.0 on left hand

Yes, I agree just the finding of the topic article would make one question the correlation of serum testosterone in adulthood and 2d/4d digit ratio.

However, while there have been some recent studies that indicate serum testosterone is not related to 2d/4d digit ratio in young athletes a correlation has been found in older men here:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21592297

It is also interesting that comparatively lower levels of testosterone are being found in younger men as opposed to older men across cultures, but the reasons for this haven't clearly been determined.

The environment can play a big role in the increase of testosterone during the course of adulthood, as well as a decrease. There have been some suggestions in studies that chemicals in the environment are influencing prenatal testosterone and adult testosterone, differently in males and females.

One thing for sure though is that 2d/4d digit ratio is a sexually dimorphic trait, per androgyny that is definitely correlated just by that physical trait alone, regardless of how it may impact behaviors, serum testosterone levels in adulthood, or identified sexual traits in males as opposed to females.

Also in reviewing the Wiki article it appears to need some cleanup, as it suggests that all the traits listed are correlated with high digit ratio, where some are actually not, as it is identified in the resourced links that lower digit ratio is correlated with some of those traits. That is identified in the talk page of that wiki article.

Apparently I'm an outlier; the index finger on my right hand is significantly longer than the ring finger. I know my testosterone level is normal-to-high, though I don't know anything about prenatal levels.

Looks like the correlation with circulating testosterone is weak. Sadly (for me), it seems like there's a vigorous negative correlation between digit ratio and physical attractiveness: http://www.psych.ucsb.edu/~roney/human%20nature.pdf

I hope I'm an exception to the rule.

I don't know if you amended (if it's possible) my poll response, but if you didn't, that means that females with a very high ratio like myself are above 8%, perhaps around 10% (I haven't made any attempt to calculate and maths isn't my forte).

So that would mean that so far, there are approximately 50% of females with very high ratio compared to those with low ratio.

Thanks Aghogday for another interesting scientific thread.

I've been seeing a certain low haired genotype amongst some people round here. Often with Scandinavian heritage

Polynesians often display low body hair but high muscular and skeletal development, as well as the ratio, and even androgeny

Mahu or fafa ene when a son is raised a daughter, is fairly common throughout the south pacific. Our red light areas have these huge polynesian lady boys!

Personally, i have experienced fluctuating levels of body hair, and their thickness and darkness, yet I am barrel chested and well muscled naturally.

Sperm count is another area. From my understanding, testosterone inhibits sperm, so higher counts are seen amongst gentle androgynous guys than bald virile hairy chested ape men

I have been to sperm donor meetings and donors have an inner spark to accompany their higher than normal sperm counts, but testosterone wise they appeared average.

From my experience of support groups, and viewing avatar photos of this website, I would hazard a guess that testosterone does in fact play a part in ASD's.... autisms vary, I have met some hairy aspies, true

but not all autisms are the same, which is a kicker here

Recently, I have become aware of the how cannabis can lower male testosterone. But only significantly with chronic use and individuals with existing hormonal issues

I'm starting to see the effective treating of ASD's from a hormonal analysis approach, with potentially natural choices

The remedy is to abandon modern devices for environs free of electronics, plastics, processed foods, pesticides or city water supplies

Heading for the hills to repair hormonal and endocrine imbalances may pay the best dividend
but requires a high level of commitment

Imagine living in a log cabin, no electrickery or putas, drinking mountain water, eating wild foods
Everyday

So much estrogen in the water nowadays. All the waterfowl are having large gaggles.... and many females, that ratio will continue, which is at least good news for aspie guys

OK, enough of the giant elephant in the room no one's talking about!

Yes, there is a transgender aspect to a number of people with Asperger's/ASD, and it's a lot higher than the average population.

Whether it's androgynous and the person is in the middle or is something more extreme, it is present in many of us.

Being born a boy or girl, it happens to both sides. And, while it's primarily in the mind, there can be a body-present manifestation to it, sometimes in the digits (like it is in partial deafness in a number of NT M2F TGs).

My ratio is 98.5 on both hands.

I am a female with diagnosed AS.

There seems to a significant potential association that hasn't been studied yet, specific to this issue, as unusual symmetry of the brain is associated left handedness which has some associations with the described conditions noted. Hormones affect brain development, and hormones affect digit ratio, there seems to me to be no doubt that it results in some interesting variations, in both areas.