The 'All Aspie women' threads

Post Reply New Topic

Actually, what I find most frustrating is when autistic women support this stereotype of women having it easier. There was an article on this very site a while back by the young woman who works with Alex (I'm sorry, I can't recall her name just now, but I think you know who I mean) about "being a woman with autism." She spent the whole article talking about how easy it was for her, how other girls just taught her how to look and act and she never had any trouble fitting in or dating. That article made me SO angry. I mean, I'm genuinely pleased that some women really do have it easier and don't struggle every day of their lives. GOOD FOR YOU. I'm also pleased when an autistic man has an easy time of it. But why is this being featured on a prominent autism site? Why is this being used to represent the female autism community? Why even bother writing an article whose headline suggests you'll be giving advice to autistic women, when actually it's just one person bragging about how easy she has it?

I later wrote to Alex offering to write articles for the site (and providing examples of my writing to show I am capable) and he never even responded, not even to say no. Sometimes I feel like this site is run by a small group of friends, like one of the cliques from my high school days, and they don't let in outsiders for any reason. They give us this forum to use, which is great and I really appreciate it, but what the outside world sees is pretty much just the articles. They've got a few men and one girl who claim to speak for everyone here, and the misrepresentation can be very damaging. And I'm sure that other men, NT and autistic alike, are reading things like this and taking it as fact, and then taking this false information about women (which actually only applies to this one lucky girl) and integrating it into their general "knowledge" about autism. Then it gets repeated over and over and over again.

This.

Additionally, my LACK of gender identity has caused me any number of problems.

You have a really good point there. I don't begrudge her that good luck, either, and of course the experience of getting lucky like that is a legitimate version of the ASD experience. However, any implication that this is universal is badly misplaced. I have seen too many AS women abused, mistreated, and left without support to believe that positive experiences for women are any more common than positive experiences for men with AS.

However, I do wonder: Is she putting a good spin on it to encourage other AS women--the way we often talk about the benefits of having ASDs, like a good memory or sharp senses? There are certainly benefits to being an AS woman, just like there are benefits to being an AS man; for example, eccentric women are less likely to be thought of as violent and dangerous, while men are not expected to be highly verbal, and are expected to focus on mutual activities rather than small talk during socialization. If this woman is an optimist of that sort, perhaps her experiences are more average, but she's just the sort of person to see herself as particularly lucky. When I look back on my own life, I've been very lucky, too, despite the abuse and prejudice. If I took pains to put a positive spin on it, I'm pretty sure I could talk as though I were living a charmed life. Maybe I might even do so, if I were trying to encourage a parent with a newly diagnosed child about all the good things that are part of a life with autism, because that can become a self-fulfilling prophecy; parents who know their child can have a good life are more likely to reach for things that they now know aren't impossible. And many of the bad things in my life have been entirely due to other people's choices, not due to autism specifically. So... things really could be that good for autistic women.

Best response to it seems to be just to have the perspectives of more autistic women available. That way, you get more variety, more realistic information about the range of possibilities.

This is an entry from my blog not long after I started it a month back:

I have been looking through my generous stash of unfinished writing. I have noticed a frequent recurrence of the following theme, here embodied in one of my poetic 'fits and starts':

"She laid herself in the pages of her story

like a pansy pressed to dry,

she kept up appearances but drained herself of life"

My mind is moving along like ticker tape in a stock market crisis, trying to make sense of this - I am always trying to make sense of the senseless, which seems to incorporate a good deal of human interaction. I suppose the stock market is a good analogy in this regard, but I will resist the tangential pull to follow that line of reasoning. Feel free to go there yourself, if you like. In fact, I usually go "somewhere else" when people are talking to me.

ahem ... back to my passing thought before it passes entirely ...

In trying to be normal, in as far as society defines normal, I see a trail of unhappiness, resentment, confusion, and other negative emotions of this ilk. While I understand that we all wear social masks and identity is "performance" to some extent, I am interested in unraveling the experience of an adult female with Asperger's in terms of gender constructs. To be equitable - the male experience, too - which will have its own unique challenges.

I made a connection the other day, for example, when I, as usual, got up from the table in the midst of a conversation that I was both overwhelmed by and excluded from. I went to the bathroom, I popped in and out of rooms without really knowing what I was looking for, and I busied myself in the kitchen "organizing" things. I was being rather stereotypically "womanly." A middle-aged woman fussing over home and kitchen, by all appearances, and not worrying her little head about "man talk" - how "easy" it is to "hide" in this picture.

What would I rather have been doing? Discussing the little pile of books I had placed on the table in hopes that someone would be interested enough to listen.

As this is supposed to be a passing thought, I will close this potentially unending topic with a couple of questions and I would love for you to share your own passing thoughts and experiences on the matter.

In terms of "neurological differences", such as Asperger's, how do gender constructs - regardless of the sex you identify with - allow you to "hide"? Conversely, where do they cause you difficulty when you "violate" these constructs?

This question applies more broadly to the overarching theme of my blog, but given that there is a cost both in suppressing your self to fit in and in openly being your self - how do you cope? How do you find balance between the two? What sort of energy is exacted from your body and soul as you chronically live with this tension?

Peace to you today, and thank you for reading.

Here's the article I was thinking of: http://www.wrongplanet.net/article413.html

She begins by saying she's writing this because she's been told she gives good advice. Then she gives us a summary of her dating life where she explains how things just sort of happened without much effort on her part. Then she says women have it easier than men when it comes to dating (absolutely NOT my experience) and the only piece of advice she can give is to "be yourself."

Here's another where she tells us how other girls took her in and taught her everything, she never went friendless, and she never had to try too hard to be socially successful: http://www.wrongplanet.net/article409.html

As I said, I don't begrudge her her good luck. I'm glad some girls have it so easy. But MOST OF US DO NOT. Most of us struggle at least as much as men, and we have the added difficulty of people not easily believing that a girl has asperger syndrome and therefore not excusing our behavior even if they have been told of our condition.

It's fine that she writes these things, but I don't see any other female perspectives featured on this site. Where is the blogger sharing experiences of never having a friend growing up? Of being rejected by family and blamed for her problems? Of fighting depression and suicidal thoughts for most of her life? Of never succeeding in finding a romantic relationship and always feeling lonely? Where's the female blogger who has severe sensory issues and meltdowns?

In fact, she's referred to at the beginning of these articles as "our female blogger." As though she is qualified to speak for the entire female autistic community.

Like I said, I offered to fill that role, but was ignored. And that makes me really angry, that the majority of us who each face our own unique difficulties are simply being ignored while the average person stops by this site, reads an article about how female aspies have it relatively easy, and then offers us no sympathy at all.

Well said! Thank you.

Yes it annoys me as well. Another thing that annoys me is when autistic females talk sadly on this forum about how they are single and can't find anyone to love, and then post photos of themselves. In their photos it sometimes turns out that they are very good-looking. When that happens, there are always scores of comments from ignorant males saying: "you're so good-looking that if you're single it must be because you want to be."



I really, really, really hate it when ignorant males imply that if you are good-looking, you should automatically be able to find a boyfriend, and if you're ugly, you shouldn't. That logic is just WRONG.

Their superficial logic says a lot about the men who are using it, though.

Firstly, it tells us that the men whose minds work like that are the kind of men who will pursue a good-looking female and ignore an ugly one, regardless of said female's personality.

Secondly, it tells us that those men are so desperate themselves that they simply cannot conceive of the concept of a good-looking Aspie woman turning a man down because he's not the kind of man she's looking for. <----- Did you see that concept? Read it, men! It's called "Having Standards."

They seem to think that, if a female is good-looking, then a man (ANY man) is probably actively pursuing her, and therefore if she's lonely she should just give in to his advances on the mere basis that he's a man ( ANY man). If she chooses to reject him on the basis that he's not compatible with her, then their primitive logic says: "you have no right to complain. A man (ANY man) was pursuing you, and you turned him down, so therefore it's your own fault you're single."



I am afraid, oh ignorant desparate males, some of us are more picky and choosy than that. Some of us have requirements for what kind of thing we are looking for in the opposite sex other than simply "must have penis."

I am aware that a lot of the males on here have the sole requirement that the female they want to hook up with "must have vagina," so it's like talking to a brick wall trying to explain the concepts of personality and compatibility to them.

I am not particularly good-looking myself but I get really annoyed on behalf of people like Hale_Bopp, who is really pretty and seems to get a lot of comments implying that she ought to have an easy time finding someone to date.

Beautiful people have just as much a hard time as anybody else when trying to find their soulmate. In fact, they probably have a harder time precisely because they are so beautiful.

Men might be intimidated by her beauty and stay away because they assume she's out of their "league." Also, men might assume that, because she is beautiful, she is probably vain. Nobody wants to date a vain person. Also, they might worry that if they date a very pretty girl, other men will constantly be flirting with her and trying to steal her away. Also, because she is pretty she might have superficial men following her like flies trying to coax her into a one-night stand. So, prettier female Aspies probably have a harder time attracting genuine suitors than the uglier ones. Not to mention, of course, all the usual problems of social awkwardness and anxiety and cluelessness that come with Asperger's and that are a major hurdle when trying to form relationships - oh, wait, no, I forgot. Those problems don't apply to us. We're females. Those problems only apply to the male Aspies, right?

Right. <------- sarcasm.

Last edited by Plodder on 29 Dec 2012, 3:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

.

Maybe we should direct these NTs to create some kind of academic faculty, so they can all get together and share their expertise with us, bring us up to speed and generally dazzle neuroscience with their incredible knowledge and insight.

Frankly I don't even know why people bother to get phd s on the subject of autism , they should just ask the average person in the street to fill them in - they seem to know so much about it..... !

I don't like the "female autism" concept, like there is some different form of autism in females that causes whatever traits are supposed to be different from regular autism. This is promoted by the book aspergirls. I don't fit this female autism thing. I just have autism, and I am also female, and I don't have some special traits of female autism.

It would be like saying women with the flu are like this
and men with the flu are like that

I guess we cant put ourselves [lack of theory of mind] in each others shoes

Quoting Kotshka

I don't blame you for being angry. I would be too. There are so many knowledgeable (on topic of female aspies) females here who also happen to have excellent writing skills. A wealth of experience and insights are going unrecognized, un-utilized, and saddest of all, ignored. It's a shame, but take courage and comfort in knowing that you have a voice in the forums, and together with the other female contributors, WE, as women have a voice here on WP.

Quoting Plodder


Excellent observation. Couldn't agree more. Fortunately, I believe the ignorant desperate type males on WP are in the minority. Hope it's not wishful thinking on my part.

I agree that autism is autism - but sociocultural gender constructs exist and it seems logical that having autism within this construct and autism within that construct will come with some experiential differences - just as neurotypical people have experiences within these constructs. They are not hard rules, but they are real. There will also be generational differences, class differences, etc. I think there are unique experiences to each which will - if you take autism as a base - affect outcome, quality of life - support systems, educational advantages, etc., allow you to merge into mainstream more readily, keep you trapped or disadvantaged.

Female constructs have a social face and social expectations and so do men. Men might feel the "money and success" pressure which is so stereotypical - and, no, it is not globally applied, but we can look around at media and society and pick out a lot of what our culture says about "men" and "women" - and how it still treats people who don't "fit" so neatly into categories - not that I believe any of us do, but it is a construct people operate by.

Anyways, as an older female growing up in the region and family I was born into, I was faced with some really traditional gender roles. It created, and still creates, a lot of conflict and confusion - largely inside where I stuff most of it. Is that a "woman" thing - or is that "me" and AS - I don't know. In think we need to talk bottom line ... I am being interrupted so I have lost my thoughts ...

... and in addition to the above, we do have biological differences - hormones are powerful little beasts that do affect the brain, so there is the biological basis thing, too - aside from gender constructs, the bodies we are in are going to give some different sorts of feedback and experiences, too - how can they not? These are just all factors - that's all.

... and I rescind autism is autism - I should not have been so ... "this is that" ... it's not that simple, either. Brains aren't that easy and it is "spectrum" - unique to each. Obviously enough overlap to say - yup, that's what it is ... though some can be in those border zones - but that's the part I meant as the "basis" - the bit we are looking at - and then we look at how that bit ... fits ... into biological spectrums and gender constructs ... and all the other factors ... whew.

I often hear people with the equally annoying opposite opinion.

"Women with Aspergers have it hard because awkwardness is considered to be a boyish trait" is one such example. Ugh.

Can we just agree that aspergers is difficult for anyone. regardless of gender?

Quoting MindBlind

Absolutely. I don't think anyone would argue with that.

I agree entirely. But I'd like to add that I believe the perception of women having it easier has a lot to do with the fact that there are so many fewer female than male "emotionally-stunted narcissists" as you put it. Or at least, if there are, they aren't nearly as visible on the boards.

I don't doubt that those women (however many there are), who ARE as emotionally-stunted as the guys making those posts, have it as hard as the guys do. In fact, they probably have it even harder, if for no other reason than being in the position where even many (supposedly) aspie women tower over them in that respect. Plus women in our culture are expected to bear more "emotional weight", so an emotionally stunted woman stands out more. It must be terribly alienating to realize that even those who are significantly more developed emotionally than you are STILL seen as behind (relative to WOMEN, even though by MALE standards they're probably "normal").

For us guys it seems really, really difficult to outgrow that emotional stuntedness, especially from within a state of poor mental health. And we meet equally stunted women rarely enough, that it's easy to lapse into seeing it as a gender issue as opposed to a developmental issue. When we do meet such women, it can be a very reassuring thing, even though ultimately, in the long distant future, we will probably do best with women who are OVERdeveloped and can compensate somewhat for our deficits. Some of the lack of standards among men has to do with the fact that it's better to have an opportunity to grow, even if it's just a stepping stone, than nothing at all.