NT question re: not understanding vs. not caring

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^Yep. People with Asperger's come with all sorts of personality types. You managed to encounter someone who was a nasty person.

That just sounds like an asspie to me. Someone who is a jerk and has Asperger's and their condition had nothing to do with how they treated you that was done intentionally. Sounds like my ex.

I have said things unintentionally that people react badly to. Weird thing is, I say something I think is borderline bad in some way, and people just laugh or take it in laid-back fashion. I say something I think is completely un-upsetting, and they get upset.
I don’t know exactly what your view of jokes at your expense is, but I can tell you that I can take jokes very far, and I love teasing those I care about. To me it’s just fun and games but (over) sensitive people can get offended or hurt. When that happens I do tend to get annoyed because I think they’re making a big deal out of nothing and that they are drama queens (regardless of gender). I’m not very sensitive and I’m not easily hurt, and I enjoy bantering with friends. I’m a poor fit to sensitive people who need their humour mild. I’m not trying to be mean to anyone when I kid with them, and I can take a lot of jokes myself as well, but some people are so easily offended! (Not saying you are, I don’t know what kind of things he says to you, I’m just explaining how it is for me.)
I don’t know what you mean by “putting down my dreams”, but if it’s a real pipe dream, maybe he’s trying to help you see that it’s unrealistic. Or if it’s something you keep talking about but do nothing about, maybe he feels you should either try to make it work or stop talking about it. I’m just trying to suggest scenarios where the words are intentional but not truly meant to be mean spirited.
I also have to say that sometimes it can be hardest to show your softest sides to those you love the most.



!. I obviously don’t know what he feels and knows, but if I’m deliberately cruel (not just teasing someone), it’s because a) I’m in a real foul mood and lash out at someone as a result (and never those who deserve it), b) I really can’t stand the person, alternatively am jealous of them, and wish to ‘get to’ them, c) I’m in a bad mood (not the same as a), more like rebellious), and wanting to provoke a fight. This is especially when PMS is raging in me.
2. I’m female so I don’t know, but I had a lot of problems with my ex. He was a spoilt brat who got emotionally abusive whenever my personality didn’t suit his preset view of me and sulked when I told him no. When we fought, he’d use things he knew upset me to tease me right after the fight was over, like he was trying to either provoke a new fight, or test if I could take it.
3. I don’t even know what “like this” means because one limited side of the story isn’t the whole story but regardless, I can say: No. Just like no two adult NTs are alike, neither are two aspie adults.
4. Again, I’m female, but when I’m cruel it’s usually based on my emotions more than the person who happens to be the victim
5. No idea what he is like, so I can’t answer that.

Thank you for your feedback!

You know very well from reading about AS in the internet that sadism is not a trait of Autism. So I wonder your reason for asking. Maybe you want to convince yourself that underneath the AS that caused him to be a jerk, there was a pure man that adored you. No, AS wasn't a cloak forced on an otherwise great man. He was a jerk, he wasn't much into you and he didn't mind losing you, so he did as he pleased with you, seeing as you didn't dump him you probably didn't mind it much.

Take comfort from the knowledge that you're wiser now and that from now on you'll never let anyone treat you badly under any rationalization, because it doesn't pay.

@ Moondust, since you were honest in your thoughts (guesses) about me, let me return the favor to you:

1. NO, I don't dream that underneath the jerk is some great guy who is into me. The reason I asked is because I have read a lot on the internet about AS and it portrays a picture of kind, misunderstood, honest (which my person wasn't by the way) great people and if only us NT's would understand (I have enough knowledge to know that that portrayal was incorrect). And my experience was very different so I wanted to know the reality. Also children with AS are very different then grown men with AS. And experiencing mindblindness (and yes he told me finally that he thought there was no difference between him and me and that his wishes were my wishes and he couldn't understand that I would want something different), lack of empathy, constantly misinterpreting what I am saying is verrrrry different then what I read so that is why I asked. I know he wasn't a pure man and I know he doesn't adore me.

2. FYI I did mind it and that is why I said I wasn't a saint, that is why I would stand up for myself, which he hated & never understood (till I got to tired, sad & gave up) and I tried to break away many times and he would wear me down, begging and arguing. Finally I DID dump him and broke away, but he sought me out again -- turns out only to make himself feel better and it finally pushed me over the edge. Please don't guess that I didn't mind emotional abuse, because that would be like saying a person with AS doesn't mind bullying cause they still want friends -- it is a complex thing.

3. Believe me I have learned, I have never experienced this before and I hope to God I never will again. Nobody deserves to be bullied, AS or NT or anyone!

That's weird that he was so nasty to you but was supportive of his other female friends. That doesn't sound typical of someone with AS. Sometimes we might hurt others' feelings by being too blunt or making some accidental mistake, but most of us don't save up our nastiness for one person. Of course, like any group of people, there are some of us who can be flat-out inconsiderate or mean(Not all of us are nice!). But being selectively mean to a close friend while being nice to others doesn't seem like a typical AS thing.

It could be that he was just a rotten guy and was intentionally taking advantage of you. Or maybe he wasn't fully intending to be cruel, but once he'd known you for a long time he began to take you for granted and stopped putting in the effort to treat you well. Or maybe he found your friendship to be difficult and straining, and he took out his frustration on you (his fault, not yours). I dunno, that's just my speculation on what might've been going through his head.

Sounds like you chose the autism factor in him as a target for your bitterness at failing to leave at the first sign of abuse.

You could blame a difficult childhood, the skin color he was born with, what he did for a living, his friends' influence, anything. But you chose the autism, and you came here seeking to validate your choice.

From my experience, the bad apple rolls around unwanted. Unless you live life alert and with a zero-tolerance policy, you'll always end up swallowing the rotten apple that everyone else let roll by.

AS people are just as likely as NTs to be narcissistic, sociopathic, etc.

What you're describing does not sound at all related to AS. If your ex does have AS, he clearly has other problems as well.

Sorry for how some of us have been reacting, but we get a lot of people assuming AS means uncaring and abusive, just because the psychologists insist on using the same term for two entirely different skills (cognitive versus affective empathy).

My "bad mood" was not general grumpiness, but this sort of rhetoric regarding AS which is making me quite weary.

The content quoted here states: "I have enough knowledge to know that portrayal was incorrect." Granted, this could be a "hasty generalization", a common fallacy where an inadequate sample (in this case: one) is inappropriately applied to an entire population ... or something else - some other motivation behind this post. Possibly it is misplaced anger, youth - oh, I hope it is youth!, some other sort of drama - I can only conjecture. Another possibility is that the accused was misinterpreted, and I cannot make a judgment about either party on that account. I have only the content of these posts to go on, and it is the content that I take exception with - and I have done a few rereads to be fair. I am thus stating my opinion.

Kudos to those who provided thoughtful and sincere replies. Surely the OP has reason to change her(?) mind due to this patience, tolerance, and kindness. I took exception to the contents of the original post, I continue to take exception to the content of the original post, and I particularly take exception to the quote I have highlighted here.

Reiterating, the content I have quoted states: " I have read ... it portrays ... great people and if only us NT's would understand (I have enough knowledge to know that portrayal was incorrect)." Even after the gracious replies given to this topic ? ... maybe the OP has "enough knowledge" now to say something like "these people did not judge me for my anger and were kind to me - and, gee, how mistaken I have been about people with AS."

If this is the voice of youth, then I can at least see the folly and drama. Otherwise, nope. I remain both unimpressed and I feel protective for my AS community members.

JMO

What she said.
Also, they use the word "empathy" to describe both the Aspie and the Sociopath, which are extreme opposits.

The sociopath understands but doesn't care, and and uses that intimate understanding against his victims. He knows what he's doing.
The Aspie cares but doesn't understand. He's just oblivious and, if he accidentally steps on your toe in his blundering, it wasn't deliberate.

logicalmom - what I had meant by that quote was that it is a generalization and I figured that all people had all qualities & this was a generalization, not that people with AS were cruel and uncaring, I was very surprised at my "friends" behavior. I think most people on this post were very nice and caring. I did not mean that I thought AS adults were not that positive way, I just meant that people were more complex then that generalization. Of course I am very appreciative of all the people here. And yes I was hurt about being told (by NT people) that I should just understand and accept that his behavior was part of his AS and hence the part of NT's have to be understanding, because I don't think that his cruelty was part of his AS (now) and I don't think I have to understand that part.

As I stated before, I have always liked the humor, openness, and intelligence of other people with AS that I have known, but this is the first individual that I have gotten close to and I wanted clarification, because I wanted to fight my shutting down behaviors...I have always been open to all people. I am not very good at expressing my thoughts in a logical way, but I assure you I was thinking only of this individual (I also thought that possible his behavior could have been cause of his childhood) and DID NOT like my instinct to generalize. I am sorry if you feel under attack, that was not my intent.

My mind is changed...or at ease. I am in an intense amount of pain right now so things are not coming out as I want them to, but I don't feel that all people with AS are like this, that is why I ventured to ask people with AS. You have no idea how appreciative I have been of the kind and thoughtful replies.

I am sorry, I don't know what else to say and thank you all for clarifying things.

Last edited by creampuff on 01 Mar 2013, 7:27 pm, edited 2 times in total.

moondust: you are right, it was my fault that I allowed this to happen...hopefully it won't happen again.

Ettina & Tahitti: yes, I think he probably had some sort of personality disorder as well, didn't think of that (and I know I am not perfect). Can you describe the difference between cognitive and affective empathy)?

I am sorry if this is making some of you upset, that was not my intent: thank you so much for being so open and compassionate and clarifying things for me. Everyone needs a safe space where they can be understood and heard, I did not mean to disrupt that place for you. If you have further insight please feel free to post (I would appreciate it), but I shall leave you to your safe space. Thank you so much, I appreciated it greatly and also came to some understanding re: personality disorders, which did not come to my mind. Thanks again.

I don’t like the hostility Logicalmom has brought to this thread. She’s usually good, but this time she does not speak for me. I’d rather have an honest discussion between reasonable people without worrying about… whatever… I don’t like the us-vs-them approach. People with good intentions should be able to relax and communicate without walking on tiptoes and being misconstrued over dumb little slips.

By the way, CO-MORBIDS are a major theme in autistic culture. I think that most people who are formally diagnosed have something in addition to Asperger’s, and that the two or more unrelated condition exasperate each other. I think that the majority of high-functioning Aspies without the extra burden of a co-morbid can squeak by and never seek a diagnosis or even realize that they are Aspies. (If it ain't broke, don't fix it.)

Possible Co-morbids include: Sensory integration issues; Tourette's syndrome; epilepsy/seizures; physical impairments, blindness, deafness; other neurological disorders, learning disabilities; mental retardation, Down syndrome or other developmental disabilities; psychiatric conditions (depression, bipolar, OCD, schizophrenia, etc.), chronic illnesses, gastro-intestinal issues, or any other health problem. To the usual list, I personally would add Post Traumatic Stress caused by various forms of abuse typically dumped on minorities or women or gays or whatever, and exasperated by the Aspie’s inability to defend.

Yeah, we should all just give others the benefit of the doubt on here. That might not be a good strategy in real life, but it works 99% of the time on WP.