Advice to aspies too basic - anyone agree?

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Thought I should mention two sources of possible useful information for adult autistics:

1) Marc Segar's Autistic Survival Guide
http://www.autism-help.org/aspergers-guide-intro.htm
http://www.autismusundcomputer.de/marc2.en.html
http://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Autistic_Survival_Guide

2) Ian Ford: The Field Guide To Earthlings.
http://www.afieldguidetoearthlings.com/

At least they have been the two most outstanding sources of written help to me so far.

The reason I don't mention it much is because it often sets off some sort of discussion of status that ends up belonging in PPR, and that's if it's actually responded to at all. Posters generally don't want to read about that topic.



My theory is that if you're of that age, and you're posting on WP, you might not have been in an enviroment where that was as much of an issue. Or if you were, you spent so long in that enviroment where it blends together. I see/hear that alot when moving over generational lines.

Thank you for the idea. I've been reading from the web these last couple days about developing persuasiveness and empathy in Sales. It seems to be mostly about talking less and observing a lot instead, and asking "why" questions to learn what makes someone tick. I'm excited about it. I've created a folder with key ideas.

Ojani, I'm going to read your links now, thanks to you too.

AgentPipeline, I don't think I understood your comments. Could you explain a bit more? For example, power interplay in a family, say, or between neighbors...how could it belong in the PPR forum??

I might have found the reason why older autistics don't show much interest in relating their experiences, these are Marc Segar's own words (link above):

"I choose to write this book now and not later because I feel that the relevant mistakes and lessons of my life are still clear in my head."

AgentPipeline.....lol

If people actually care enough to respond, the most common response is to start off in a long drawn out rant of how power differences are wrong and the world is screwed up and (sometimes) that I'm not really an Aspie because I write these things.

That last part only happens every year or so.

That sort of thing is why I don't give out much advice when it comes to that issue.

You hit the nail on the head with that one. I'll be happy the month that two WPers move to be near other Aspies.

Sorry, AgentPalpatine, I should have double-checked your nickname! To be honest, I'm now laughing too!

I agree with the comments of you both, except as to forming a self-sustaining community, it depends on life sustainance resources and not on physical proximity. Eg: an aspie who has a translations service (internet-based, no need at all for real-life meetings), does not automatically seek to fill their openings with aspie translators around the world but will hire according to other priorities.

If your income comes from another aspie, your whole life changes. You suddenly don't have the life-or-death need to force yourself to fit in the NT society - not nearly as much as when your life depends on NTs. All the rest - friends, social frameworks, family - is secondary to basic needs of roof, food, medicine. At this point in history, the only aspies that don't need to fit in for survival are the very rich ones.

We should take this to one of the threads about Aspies livng near each other (currently front page of "General", or "(Urban) Aspie community, front page of "activism". I have some sort of interest in both

If I understand your point, and we're well beyond the OP's topic here, your arguement is that we want to have an Aspie-based economy, or "internal" economy as I've refered to it in the past. I agree in large part with you, but I think the easiest way to get there is with at least a small Aspie community, which could be as simple as a few small apartment/retail buildings near each other in an existing urban location.

Anyway, I'm well past OP's intent here.

Any minority, what to speak of any disabled group, could say the same. I CAN'T fit the basic, laboratory-ideal situations. Maybe you can learn to, in which case you are lucky, but most of us simply can't.

No, they don't deserve to have us contort ourselves into impossible shapes because "they built society". Indeed, they built it, for their own benefit and comfort, and we have no escape from it. Among people on the spectrum, you are extremely privileged if you are capable of learning to get along in it, and you should think twice before applying that expectation to the rest of us.
It is easier for them to accommodate us than for us to imitate them. If that is not true for you you have no disability and no need for a diagnosis.
It is also a society created and sustained overwhelmingly by people who can walk, and yet no one demands that people be denied wheelchair ramps for that reason. Well, no one except a complete jerk.

A self-sustaining farm would be the ideal, but I'm talking about things that could be done 1 minute from now by any aspie, and are not done by any one aspie. Because aspies don't really want a society of their own. Aspies suffer from the Woody Allen syndrome of not wanting to be accepted into groups that accept people like them.

Take for example the Jews, scattered all around the globe and still as strong a community as they come. They just have a very high awareness that integration is a carrot they'll never reach. Aspies may reach that awareness too in a few thousand years, and write their own Book of rules too. At this point in time, however, they're all busy learning NT "social skills".

One more factor is that we aspies don't enjoy lack of empathy, verbosity, lack of reciprocity, relating obliviousness, blunt observations of themselves, etc. in their friends any more than NTs do.

I respectfully disagree with the above. Wanting to be a part of something seems to be a common trait with most people. I draw the readers' attention to the social skills section, where people want to be a part of a group, but just arn't fitting in. Communication and information processing differences will cause that, and at some point, it's really "square peg into a round hole".

Do all Aspies want thier own society, I doubt it. I'm fairly sure that some members of PPR would be engaged in a cage match within 168 hours of arrival. Do some Aspies want a society, I believe they do.

As for the lack of empathy, verbosity, etc., how much of that is the result of not treating social conventions the same way? There is a reoccuring theme on these boards, and that's of not recieving reliable social feedback during development. If a young Aspie carried out a conversion discussing dinosaurs, and did'nt understand the non-verbal social cues of discouragement, well, that could lead development issues very quickly.

I personally would be willing to accept the risk that I might not like my neighbors, others may not.

For NTs, they typically learn the basics in elementary school and they just naturally figure out from there how to apply it more complex situations. I think when you get beyond the basics, it becomes extremely variable and the advice really needs to cater specifically to each individual aspie. For me, things are very complicated. I have skills and deficits ranging from very basic to very complex social skills due to the immersion experiance that I got in college. I went around picking up complex social stuff and not even having the basics down good. Hiearchy makes things very confusing.

This thread brings up a good point, and it's something that's been on my mind for a long time.

I'm 29 years old - does that qualify me as "an elder"? I'm excellent at social interaction, to the point NT's won't notice anything 'different' about me and very much enjoy my company. However, I had to acquire those skills very deliberately and I had to do it on my own because my parents were clueless about how to teach something they "just knew".

Not necessarily, behaving as IF the situation was ideal is a very effective strategy a majority of the time. If you learn how to be polite, respectful and try your very hardest to be understanding and empathic..... then you become unusual in a GOOD way. Treat someone as IF they are trustworthy and valuable and nearly all the time they will try to prove you right. Being "extra polite" is unusual and valuable in all the cultures I've been. (USA, Europe, Mexico) As a side benefit people become far more willing to overlook any social mistakes you make.

Of course the downside is that being able to spot a dangerous person/situation becomes critically important. Self-Defense classes are excellent starting point for that skill. So is being EXTRA paranoid about dark, isolated places and letting a trusted person check out anyone you interact with more then just once. Pay attention to anyone you feel unusually uncomfortable around and compare notes with a trusted NT to learn WHY you felt that way.

Now for the list of useful resources for social skills.

ABSOLUTELY!! ! Also psychology books, parenting books, and any other non-fiction how-to books with promising titles. (ie - "How to Write Dialog")

Comic Books! Modern comics explore a wide range of emotions and the simplified expressions are easier (and less scary) to study then real people. This way you can stare at expressions and body language from many angles with the context spelled out in the story.

Cartoons/Anime Simplified expressions + voice tones. This is the next step up from comics. Intonation is a large part of communication AND something many Aspies have trouble identifying. The speed of cartoons also helps you practice identifying emotions quickly without losing track of the plot. (rewind/pause/replay functionality is awesome)

TV Shows/Movies Next you can practice on live-action. Most shows are about humans in extreme situations so the emotions are intensified. Comedy and sitcoms get laughs out of exaggerated acting or unusual/bizarre situations. Learning how to spot "not normal" can help you figure out what "normal" is supposed to look like. Cop dramas and reality shows are particularity good for learning how to spot lies.

Fiction Books In novels only the important body language and vocal cues are written. Reading and studying fiction helped me identify 'important' gestures and expressions.

Acting Classes Very useful, but only if you don't get stage fright. Ditto if looking people in the eye seriously freaks you out. Milder version of the class would be acting books. If you can at least learn a "neutral" set of postures/stance then your communication with strangers won't get buried in twitches and other body language static.

Special Interest Clubs/Sports This is about the lowest pressure social interaction that exists. (other then family) Practicing your social skills here is the closest thing to a shallow end that I can think of. All the study in the world is not gonna substitute for actual practice.

"The code is more what you'd call "guidelines" than actual rules." - Captain Barbossa, Pirates of the Caribbean: The Curse of the Black Pearl So true, especially of anything called 'social rules'.

Hope this helped someone.

I definately qualify as an older aspie but did not have a clue until recently. I have had a reasonably successful life, particularly with my career which began in my late 30s after a typical bad start and I am now semi retired. However, my career more or less ended 5 years ago when I was told I was wierd yet again (my managers later denied saying this). I have no pearls of wisdom. I have blundered through life rarely making friends and never keeping them, without insight, because I didn't know what the issue was. An increase in anxiety and 'meltdowns' led me to seek help but people of my generation just drifted through life, learning bits along the way but not really succeeding. Perhaps it is me that can learn from the younger generation who may have more awareness because they have been diagnosed and had support if they were lucky.