Psychological VS Neurological Aspergers Syndrome/ASD

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Its hard for me to imagine how bad upbringing would cause someone to 'become' an aspie, or an autie. Why would a neurotypical child respond in that particular way? Most spectrumites show the behaviors early on -maybe not at birth-but by entering grade school. So we seem to be aspie from the get go- before the environment has time to to traumitize us. And even if something in the family dynamic causes a child to become more autistic it would have to be because that child already has somekind of innate tendency to respond in an autistic way. The same person might have been slighly less autistic in some better environment, but they would still have strong autistic tendencies because of how they are wired.

Well many disorders are neurological, but I once had a trauma and know some people with a very messed up childhood and psychological problems propably because of that. So there will be always need for psychology.

I've only studied Borderline Personality Disorder, but I seem to recall multiple studies pointing to actual structural differences, such as a smaller hippocampus and overconnectivity between certains areas (would support the idea of excessive emotional firing and overreaction to "triggers").

Like I said before, there are people who grow up in wars, famines, and ophanages who turn out just fine. Therefore, I believe that environment plays a relatively insignificant role in the development of most mental disorders. This includes Asperger's (obviously) but also just about everything else. And environment plays a noticeable but limited role in how much a person grows out of this disorder.

Yeah I got that, but that's not how ASDs work....people are born with autism, they don't develop it some problems people develop from negative life events or toxins could mimic an ASD in some ways. For instance I could see how PTSD could look like autism in a lot of ways, but that doesn't make it autism. Lots of disorders have simular/overlapping symptoms.

I don't think someone can learn their way out of the neurology they are born with brain placidity only goes so far....yet people argue brain plasticity means you can just learn your way out of any and all mental problems or disorders. I can just picture someone saying they have brain damage and someone claiming they simply have to think really hard and fix the parts of their brain that were damaged.........probably not going to happen.

In most psychiatric disorders you have a comination out of different factors. I was just reading about OCD the other day that you have there in slightly more than 50% of the cases at least one traumatic event. There is no: "it's just that". You can also influence many disorders with therapy. You couldn't influence them with pure talking, if they would be purely neurological.

The utility of talk therapy is very controversial and far from a sure thing.

That still doesn't explain the high comorbidity of trauma in many psychiatric disorders. Controversal doesn't mean psychiatric disorders are purely neurologic like you claim. So far I know, meds are also controversal in several psychiatric disorders.
I once had a trauma for approx. 2 years and it stoped nearly complitely after I just changed the environment I was in. There are many environmental factors that can influence disorders someone has.

Yes, I experienced trauma as well (pervasive sexual abuse over a period of years); according to my therapist, what I experienced as a child with my parents qualified as "moderately severe" physical abuse, though I still can't see it that way. I don't think these things had much of an effect on me. Many people experience trauma. Kids grow up in orphanages and during famines and wars and turn out mostly fine. Some kids have little or no trauma and develop psychological disorders. Trauma is a part of life; what distinguishes those who develop trauma from those who don't except different innate traits due to different wiring? People with BPD and bipolar have a different brain structure from NT's, just like people with Asperger's due. It's got nothing to do with anything Freudian.

I'm just saying that there are different factors. It's not black and white and besides that I might be German, but I don't really agree with Freud, but I'm just saying that, that it's clear. But there is a very interesting book out there I'm just reading. It's called: Out of Our Heads: Why You Are Not Your Brain, and Other Lessons from the Biology of Consciousness. It's also recomended by Oliver Sacks. It's about that's not that easy to interpret MRT (different brainareas communicate with each other and so on), what our brain is capable to, what can't be explained so easily with neurological theories about our brain and so on. I don't agree with everything in there, but it's highly interesting.
The question isn't answered that easily and propably the answer is somewere in the middle, what, in my opinion, is very likely. It's not pure psychology but also not pure neurology, but instead a highly complex combination in my opinion.

I've not heard that to be the case at all. In fact, I believe there is evidence that children with ASDs are more subject to abuse because of having an ASD. I had a crap childhood, but my 5 siblings all had the same childhood and none of them have Asperger's or symptoms like it.

Those who are deemed to "grow out" of it is usually because of intensive ABA therapy when they are very young and all while they are growing up. By the time they are 18-22 or so some re-take the test and get 42 or 44 instead of the 65 or higher needed to diagnose. Therefore their diagnosis is taken away from them.

The part that most of these ABA therapists, psychologists and psychiatrists don't realise is that often these individuals are still "acting" NT. They have just built up many layers growing up in order to do so - instead of the one layer standard act most of us older aspies who did not have therapy or were undiagnosed have. That layering makes it more difficult to spot, and also makes it appear more natural - even though it's not natural at all.

The worst part is, when things really hit rock bottom (and that can happen in college, once they're married, or once they have children) - and they have intensive multiple sources of stress (e.g. failing college, get fired from a job, get a long term illness themselves and have someone close to them die all at the same time) - often that amount of stress over a sufficient period of time can cause a breakdown or burnout - with the result that all their layering of acting NT breaks down completely and you see exactly how autistic they are. Since they no longer have the diagnosis anymore though - they are unable to access any support (be it professional, financial, or accommodations at work or college) in order to do so, which for many of them means they are screwed. It can take a very long time to recover from that. Also because they are not taught to manage their energy as an autistic person, it makes the likelihood of them trying to act fully NT, using up far too much energy, and makes breakdowns and burnouts more likely to happen.

These people never "outgrow" autism. The layering of acting NT can make it seem that way - but once you place enough stress of them, the autistic way of being comes back in full. And it can take a long longer to readjust and attempt for them to get back to what they consider "normal".

Some therapists are so focused on trying to teach these kids to "act NT" that they completely overlook the long term implications of those actions and decisions. Instead of teaching them NT things and at the same time, teaching them to manage their energy wisely, too many push far too much and far too far. Ultimately it's these young adults who pay the price.

Last edited by Kjas on 23 Apr 2013, 5:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Everyone in America that has been diagnosed with Asperger's Syndrome will grow out it in May, because that's when the American Psychiatric Association will be publishing their new edition of their 'bible', the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders and they have already announced that Asperger's Syndrome and it's diagnostic characteristics will NOT appear in it. Epidemic over!

That is not quite how it works, those impaired by their Aspergers Syndrome will still be diagnosable as having autism, or one of the other disorders related to that I believe they are including, cannot quite remember the specifics on those. They are getting rid of the term Asperger's Syndrome as its been concluded aspergers is autism therefore it should be autism......there are to be different severity levels as well.

Also what epidemic are you referring to in the first place?

Nope, it's not like this.
Most will get rediagnosed with ASD.

Given that everyone on the spectrum has different life setting, different parents and is somewhere else on the spectrum and also evolves his own specific strategies from early childhood I see a great deal of variety as to how people can deal with AS as well as how people may be traumatized.

The quality of interactions is always different, the enviroment maybe suitable or the person with AS maybe highly skilled. Some people with AS notably with higher IQs also may experience trauma from not fitting in. Some people with AS may be doing fine for some time and after they grow up the settings change and the people change, maybe a major change in lifestyle may lead to additional trauma. Also old trauma may support new traumatic experience. Lets just say someone has been traumatized in childhood, but has grown out of the trauma. Some traumatic evens may still leave a specific imprint on the mind of person. That trauma maybe old, but when person is traumatized again in life the old trauma may double the negative effect of old trauma. It also needs to be explained that personality developement of people with AS is uneven and is more hard to track as opposed to normal kids. So while some kids with AS may seem overly develped in some areas they maybe under-developed in other areas. This is also another reason why it was first labeled autistic psychopathy. Not to mention that developmental spurts may go unoticed. So a child that is relatively consider slow will be labeled as slow even if the child has allready developed or even surpassed peers. This may lead to confusion. The child maybe traumatized again and not because it is falling behind. Other problem is expectations and communication.

Having problems to understand social context and having trouble understanding what are social expectations can lead to great deal of anxiety. There is a level of uncertainty as to what to do and how to behave.

Another point of trauma is the adherence to following rules. Once you decide to follow rules rigidly you may end up socialy isolated, because other people know how to behave not following rules rigidly. AS people follow some rules almost blindly, but it makes them look funny or even weird or even idiotic in eyes of others.

Not to mention the developement of people with AS is problematic, because as they progress all the way to adulthood the social interactions get even more complicated. Many people in adulthood have to face challenges they may have not even considered before and will have to hold a job, learn new things about people, get used to the fact that they have to take care of self and others and many want to live social life and date and maybe start a family. This may look easy, but also maybe hard with accordance as to how the person with AS developes along the way. We are talking about people who have to learn strategies how to deal with people and learn about social situations, that alone can create a lot of pressure and again may lead to problems.

And not to mention countries that are far behind in diagnoizing people with Asperger syndrome. Some countries are still a little old fashioned and think that people who can smile and tell a joke or a lie are not AS lol. Well, that is the way it is.

You didn't get what I meant.
I didn't mean that people with AS can't be abused or can't have a trauma.
What I meant is that true AS can be confused with the consequences of a trauma, because the characteristics can be similar.
One of the things that rules out an AS diagnosis is childhood trauma.
The first things the psychiatrist did when I was 6 was asking to my mother if I've had a trauma (I didn't).

I didn't mean that people with AS can't have a childhood trauma.
If a person with AS has had a childhood trauma, the only way to confirm that that person has AS would be knowing what the child behaviour was like before the trauma (if there is someone that knows so).

I hope I explained what I meant...