Severe PTSD, not Asperger's

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http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi ... ne.0020835

I once made a previous thread where Kjas basically described herself just like the study, and I noted that I definitely never tried to imitate anyone. So if I achieve the same masking she does or these women do without imitation, then it makes me wonder if, perhaps, I have it.

Actually, it could be that, since BPD is a "hyper female" brain syndrome in the same way that ASD is a "hyper male" brain syndrome, that mild Asperger's + BPD could partially cancel each other out in key areas, such as ability to understand nonverbal communication. Aspies have severe deficits in cognitive empathy and nonverbal communication while BPDers have superior abilities in this area. Combine the two, and you might get someone who is average in these abilities (me) but seriously messed up in other ways that match both BPD and Asperger's.

I definitely have some positive aspie traits, like systematizing and analytical ability that it seems the folks on the BPD forum do not have for the most part -- who just see far more reactive while I consider myself to be quite reflective and logical in many areas, similar to some aspies on this board. On the other hand, it seems like I can relate far more to the BPD way of experiencing people and situations than the aspie way. So it could well be that I have both.

Last edited by Tyri0n on 07 May 2013, 10:26 pm, edited 2 times in total.

AS isn't really "hyper male" (AS brains are actually more like halfway between NT male and NT female) and BPD is not really "hyper female," except via a rather stereotypical view of what women are like.

The comments about canceling out do seem interesting, although I don't know if it works that way. It's worth some thought because they do have some conflicting traits.

Thank you for the link - I really couldn't find the research and I looked. I may have seen and forgotten about the thread you mentioned as well. Edit: Link doesn't work.

Last edited by Verdandi on 07 May 2013, 10:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Did the professional (who diagnosed you) perform any Short-Term Memory testing (e.g. Wechsler Memory Scale aka WMS-IV) or Attention/Executive Functions tests (e.g. Wisconsin Card Sorting Test, Integrated Visual and Auditory Continuous Performance Test).

These tests indicated, for me, that I had issues with complex memory processing, which impacts Executive Functioning and Multi-Tasking.

Note: You may find this Post interesting, as it documents the cognitive weaknesses found in individuals with High Functioning Autism.

Yes. I had some of those tests. I have Nonverbal Learning Disorder and a profile that is "somewhat consistent" with ADHD. Basically, I have high impulsivity, bad attention ability, and poor executive function. My working memory clocked in at barely average while my FSIQ was significantly higher than average.

Anyway, I don't quite match the profile you sent. However, the link you provided talks about HFA. My cognitive profile was similar to Asperger's, not HFA. So, for example, complex language ability is not typically a problem for AS like it is for HFA.

I must admit, I know a man who has autism but also has BPD. You remind me very, very much of him Tyrion.

It was considered because of his social abilities, that he had PDD-NOS rather than AS, and BPD as a comorbid.
He is quite extroverted with a great sense of humor and when meeting him, one would not know he was autistic. Until you live with him and you see first hand the signs.
The BPD causes more problems for him than the autism most of the time - apart from short term working memory and learning issues, etc. His mood swings and lack of impulse control are the things that make his life most difficult.

http://www.plosone.org/article/info:doi ... ne.0020835

The article linked by the Halfman (Tyri0n) now properly working. There was a period in the end of the original link corrupting it.

That makes sense. Also describes me, yet I don't know much about my impulse control. A few others have complained about it, but I'm not sure if that is or isn't one of my main issues. I often do things that look like impulse control issues out of boiling spite towards a person or institution.

Since you are one of the empathy experts around here, what do you think about the hypothesis of BPD and AS partially canceling each other out in the areas of cognitive empathy and understanding nonverbal communication and mental states?

I know I definitely have low affective empathy and high cognitive empathy, as confirmed professionally.

Psychologically - it is possible, if the trauma is severe and long lasting enough. It would be a case of going into therapy to address the PTSD first before you would be able to tell definitely one way or the other. Severe disassociation as a result of trauma can certainly short circuit affective empathy quite successfully, even for an individual who would normally have a normal to high amount of it. In such a case, especially a long term one, you may have concentrated on the cognitive empathy in order to compensate for it over a long period of time. Much of it may be layered intellectualization which is why you have been so successful at it - it's one of the key things ABA therapy attempts to do.

I should note however, that empathy or lack of it - does not define autism, although it is a key indicator. What really matters is how you deal with the empathy, or lack of it, that you have.

guess I am also at a cross-roads in a lot of ways. I have been quite ambivalent about religion for about 5 years. I am going to mention this to my parents (what do I have to lose?), if they deny that anything happened (I remember some things; I just would not have characterized it as being nearly that bad, from what I can remember; at most a few incidents of sexual abuse, and some harsh punishment, but massive abuse? I don't know...), I am going to have to decide whether I accept the possibility that someone with an evil spirit related to these things transferred into me, basically giving me experiences I didn't personally have. Freaky idea, and not something I would normally consider. But given how bad everything showed up, and given how I reacted, I am open to even freaky/implausible explanations. I just don't see how these tests could have been in error under the circumstances, and trust me, I have strong B.S. indicators and have lobbied relentlessly to get past misdiagnoses, like Asperger's and Lyme Disease, overturned. This one just seems different; I can feel that it's real.

How could a BPD expert say my trauma indicators were the worse she has seen in 15 years of practice? If what I remember happening counts as severe trauma, what do other people call trauma? Haven't like 1/3 women been sexually assaulted? The experiences I remember are not that unusual, so how could my PTSD be so bad that it showed up as the worst she had ever seen and get mistaken for autism?

Something is really off here, and I don't know what it is. But I can't think it was the trauma indicators that were off. I literally disassociated for 8 hours and couldn't move after I was told about this.

Was that not unusual in general or specifically not unusual for you?

Please explain.

You said



How do you mean "not that unusual?"

If 1/3 women experience sexual assault/abuse, then it doesn't make sense that a few incidents would indicate trauma that severe. I meant sexual abuse is common. I only remember a few incidents vaguely, and I didn't think they were that bad.

Most people believe that their abuse (as long as it is not sexual or physical - or sometimes even in those cases) is "not that bad". Most people do not recognise abuse.
Those who grow up with it simply consider it normal.
Women may experience abuse frequently, but usually they are adults, or at least teenagers - they have more defense mechanisms and are better equipped to cope.

The first thing a child does when they experience abuse is disassociate. It is the only real defense mechanism children have. The younger you are when it starts, and the more constant it is, the worse it is. Some children disassociate worse than others. It isn't too uncommon for children who have been sexually abused quite constantly as children, to be incapable or have great difficulty of having any real emotional connection later in life with other people - especially their sexual partners. For some of them the disassociation becomes permanent or even as adults they have frequent episodes of it. Some of them even report not remembering them, or having a lot of trouble remembering them, or that they are very vague - unless they have long term memory issues, those are usually pretty clear signs of disassociation.

Definitely me. But I don't think the abuse was enough to cause this. I mean, I know people who were seriously abused, and they look crazy/troubled and talk about it all the time. I have a real job, look normal, get good grades, and can only remember a few things vaguely. The only others who have picked up trauma were some of my past girlfriends. I did not tell them anything, but they picked it up due to my poor treatment of them and abnormal reactions to so-called "triggers" and getting very irritated and hateful after sex. I still can't believe it though.

But I really can't keep friends or sustain relationships, and I've definitely tried and had lots of dating/sexual experience. Given my issues, I always know it's a matter of time before I get dumped, so when I'm dating someone, there comes a point where I start to get very uncomfortable and need to get rid of my partner.

So sure...I am messed up. But I don't see the connection to the severe abuse I (supposedly) experienced.

Is it possible for MMPI and projective tests (three of them) to be invalid even if they are internally consistent and even if the subject has a strong reaction to hearing the results and becomes a zombie for 8 hours? I have literally been either dazed or crying for the past 12 hours, and I wonder if everything if my reaction is just imaginative because I don't remember anything that could cause either results like this or my reaction.

Last edited by Tyri0n on 08 May 2013, 3:17 am, edited 1 time in total.

This may vary from person to person, and the impression/memory one may have of these incidents may not reflect the trauma experienced or triggers one experiences later.

It may also be that the professional in question either misinterpreted or overinterpreted what you reported and what she saw in you.