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As an aspie. Is this how you see other NT's in the world?

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Nonperson
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24 May 2013, 1:31 pm

More like that's how they see each other, and I can't see it and only find out after the fact.



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24 May 2013, 2:09 pm

Janissy wrote:
Those videos were hilarious. I don't think they were about subtext (in subtext the unspoken really is supposed to be understood by the other person) and rather were about how people take great care to not communicate what they are thinking in an enviroment where there are high penalties for letting everybody know your every thought.

Saying what you are really thinking is great between partners, family, friends. But at work? NO. Saying exactly what you are thinking at work is perilous and can only be done in certain and rare situations. It is no coincidence that these vignettes are set at work. At work you must cooperate with people you may really dislike in order to get things done. But if you openly speak that dislike, nothing gets done (and that's the very least of the repercussions).

I can't call any of this subtext because subtext is still meant as communication. In these vignettes, you get thoughts spoken aloud standing in for what people actually say. Subtext can be figured out from the phrasing of what people say and how they say it and what their body language communicates and if that body language matches what they said. But here you don't know what the characters said so you don't know if there's a mismatch with body language (actually you do know, see footnote below) nor can you tell how they (would have) phrased things to communicate subtext. What you are actually getting here is literal mind reading, how a work enviroment would seem to somebody who was telepathic.

*Body language can be consciously controlled to prevent a mismatch between words and body language from revealing a person's inner thoughts. That is certainly happening in the videos (actors must master this or they look wooden). Part of the humour of the videos is that there is such a giant mismatch between body language and what they say. It is how you know you are hearing thoughts and not words. If there was nio mismatch and the body language mirrored the words, it wouldn't be funny.


Wow. As soon as I started reading your post I thought "there is no way this person can be an Aspie", so I checked and you're not, which makes sense that you impressively understand all that. You are so lucky to get it all, well I don't know if lucky is the word, perhaps sometimes ignorance is bliss, unless it bites you in the ass.


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24 May 2013, 2:34 pm

I think I missed something, what in Janissy's post ruled out being an Aspie (before looking at her profile)?


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24 May 2013, 3:00 pm

Janissy wrote:
Those videos were hilarious. I don't think they were about subtext (in subtext the unspoken really is supposed to be understood by the other person) and rather were about how people take great care to not communicate what they are thinking in an enviroment where there are high penalties for letting everybody know your every thought.


I think it's more complicated than that. A lot of the time in business people behave like dogs growling and marking and rolling over to show their bellies...

Sometimes the subtext is "kiss my ass and grovel in front of me" because it's about the top dog demonstrating his position. This happens at work a lot. I often don't get it, but allies explain it to me. There are gestures that serve primarily to reinforce hierarchy. Some of this seemed to be that, with the normally subtextual part made obvious. I do see that other lines were just telepathy, but I think part of the joke was the way they were putting on the pro persona faces while speaking the hidden message or private thought.



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24 May 2013, 3:11 pm

whirlingmind wrote:
Janissy wrote:
Those videos were hilarious. I don't think they were about subtext (in subtext the unspoken really is supposed to be understood by the other person) and rather were about how people take great care to not communicate what they are thinking in an enviroment where there are high penalties for letting everybody know your every thought.

Saying what you are really thinking is great between partners, family, friends. But at work? NO. Saying exactly what you are thinking at work is perilous and can only be done in certain and rare situations. It is no coincidence that these vignettes are set at work. At work you must cooperate with people you may really dislike in order to get things done. But if you openly speak that dislike, nothing gets done (and that's the very least of the repercussions).

I can't call any of this subtext because subtext is still meant as communication. In these vignettes, you get thoughts spoken aloud standing in for what people actually say. Subtext can be figured out from the phrasing of what people say and how they say it and what their body language communicates and if that body language matches what they said. But here you don't know what the characters said so you don't know if there's a mismatch with body language (actually you do know, see footnote below) nor can you tell how they (would have) phrased things to communicate subtext. What you are actually getting here is literal mind reading, how a work enviroment would seem to somebody who was telepathic.

*Body language can be consciously controlled to prevent a mismatch between words and body language from revealing a person's inner thoughts. That is certainly happening in the videos (actors must master this or they look wooden). Part of the humour of the videos is that there is such a giant mismatch between body language and what they say. It is how you know you are hearing thoughts and not words. If there was nio mismatch and the body language mirrored the words, it wouldn't be funny.


Wow. As soon as I started reading your post I thought "there is no way this person can be an Aspie", so I checked and you're not, which makes sense that you impressively understand all that. You are so lucky to get it all, well I don't know if lucky is the word, perhaps sometimes ignorance is bliss, unless it bites you in the ass.


Did not read any other messages on this thread yet, nor did I yet watch the video, but just read this message---don't know why---perhaps because I like the name Whirlingmind":-)

In any case, yes, this person did leave a very articulate well-thought out message, and thanks...

So, Whirlingmind, you think an aspie cannot do that? I have seen several incredibly articulate messages from various aspies clearly making many good points.

I will comment further on this thread after I watch the video, as I am very interested in this topic, but for now, many people, be they aspies or not aspies, generally are not able to comprehensively integrate various somewhat complex material.from many different angles. Why? Imo, they didn't learn how to do so, for whatever reason---perhaps their own individual intellectual capacity and/or poor quality of education, and also, they simply don't want to, and this could be for different reasons such as a one-sided, biased and limited view is buffering emotional pain, or maybe they are just not willing to put forth the effort to process material comprehensively, perhaps because they do not see much of a payoff, but be assured, there is a great payoff in learning how to think actively rather than just to label and react---some of the potential rewards of mental clarity---joy and freedom, and if a person learns how to articulate his own understanding in such a way that others can understand---he gains the ability to actually affect the world rather than just react and by reacting trigger reactions in others...



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24 May 2013, 3:16 pm

I'd go with the "did'nt learn how to do so" most of the time. IMO, the concepts discussed above are more or less part of "social capital".


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24 May 2013, 3:31 pm

This is exactly how I view them. [youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r0Z2IJuS5Ks[/youtube]


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24 May 2013, 4:03 pm

LupaLuna wrote:
As an aspie. Is this how you see/perceive other NT's in the world? especially politicians?


I am not certain I understand the question.

While I am an aspie, I was taught the importance of good manners when I was young. There were a set of rules that were drilled into me. One of those was, if you don’t have something nice to say, don’t say it.

I think either an aspie or NT can have “less than nice” thoughts about others. For example, I have encountered many people in the workplace who do things (or make decisions) without thinking through logical and obvious consequences. But, per the rule, I don’t go around calling these people idiots.

With that being said, the “thoughts” that the actors had in the two clips, seemed shallow, superficial and ridiculous. Is that your point? That an aspie would never think such shallow/superficial/ridiculous thoughts?



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24 May 2013, 6:32 pm

I think part of it is that people - particularly in business circles, but also socially, think these things, and in some cases say them. But they say them in such words and with such superficial smiles and graces that if the second person said " So and so said this to me" a third person could come to the conclusion that no harm or malice was intended. Eg "that's such a GREEAT jumper" (insert condescending smirk while looking down their nose at you) translates as" Did you find that at the Salvo's clean out sale?" and " O we MUSST get together for coffee sometime " when they are going to make damn sure they never have anything to do with you again.

The clips are taking what people are actually thinking and sometimes saying in snide, manipulative or passive-agressive ways and portraying this overtly .



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24 May 2013, 6:39 pm

Rocket123 wrote:

With that being said, the “thoughts” that the actors had in the two clips, seemed shallow, superficial and ridiculous. Is that your point? That an aspie would never think such shallow/superficial/ridiculous thoughts?


I think the over all question being asked by the OP is do NTs commonly mask ulterior thoughts/motives behind superficial niceties and are Aspies able to pick up on that or do we just take it at surface value? Certainly, Aspies don't always think pure thoughts about others but I'm not sure we mask those thoughts so well or read underlying hostilities of others. In my experience, there seems to be a certain assumption by NTs that others will read at least a little bit into their true attitudes via body language, so they can be polite on the surface, as society norms dictate, but still express their disapproval. They seem to get frustrated with you when you "don't get it" and they need to come right out and say it.



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24 May 2013, 6:59 pm

Tori0326 wrote:
I think the over all question being asked by the OP is do NTs commonly mask ulterior thoughts/motives behind superficial niceties and are Aspies able to pick up on that or do we just take it at surface value?


Tori0326 - Thanks for explaining this. Sometimes I can be so dense. LOL.

You know - I find that social discourse can be quite confusing - especially when people decide not to say what they mean. Ugh.

Tori0326 wrote:
Certainly, Aspies don't always think pure thoughts about others but I'm not sure we mask those thoughts so well or read underlying hostilities of others.


Agreed. Makes sense.

Tori0326 wrote:
In my experience, there seems to be a certain assumption by NTs that others will read at least a little bit into their true attitudes via body language, so they can be polite on the surface, as society norms dictate, but still express their disapproval. They seem to get frustrated with you when you "don't get it" and they need to come right out and say it.


LOL. I think people are surprised at how clueless I can sometimes be. I guess it goes with the territory.



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24 May 2013, 7:09 pm

Janissy wrote:
Those videos were hilarious. I don't think they were about subtext (in subtext the unspoken really is supposed to be understood by the other person) and rather were about how people take great care to not communicate what they are thinking in an enviroment where there are high penalties for letting everybody know your every thought.

Saying what you are really thinking is great between partners, family, friends. But at work? NO. Saying exactly what you are thinking at work is perilous and can only be done in certain and rare situations. It is no coincidence that these vignettes are set at work. At work you must cooperate with people you may really dislike in order to get things done. But if you openly speak that dislike, nothing gets done (and that's the very least of the repercussions).

I can't call any of this subtext because subtext is still meant as communication. In these vignettes, you get thoughts spoken aloud standing in for what people actually say. Subtext can be figured out from the phrasing of what people say and how they say it and what their body language communicates and if that body language matches what they said. But here you don't know what the characters said so you don't know if there's a mismatch with body language (actually you do know, see footnote below) nor can you tell how they (would have) phrased things to communicate subtext. What you are actually getting here is literal mind reading, how a work enviroment would seem to somebody who was telepathic.

*Body language can be consciously controlled to prevent a mismatch between words and body language from revealing a person's inner thoughts. That is certainly happening in the videos (actors must master this or they look wooden). Part of the humour of the videos is that there is such a giant mismatch between body language and what they say. It is how you know you are hearing thoughts and not words. If there was nio mismatch and the body language mirrored the words, it wouldn't be funny.


But I think this does apply to AS. In that kind of work environment you have to be aware on some level that the words people are saying don't necessarily match what they are thinking just to survive. If you're completely unaware that there's BS going on you're likely to get in even deeper trouble. It's like people are walking a thin line. There's an unspoken layer under the surface that nobody dares admit but everyone knows on some level. It's not just simple deceit if everyone knows the other is not letting on what they really think. It's more like a collective delusion.

As for me, there's absolutely no way I could follow all that was going on there. I wouldn't survive. :shaking:



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24 May 2013, 7:21 pm

marshall wrote:
As for me, there's absolutely no way I could follow all that was going on there. I wouldn't survive. :shaking:


It’s friggin astounding. I go through 50 years of life in complete oblivion. I spent over 25 years working in corporate hell. Then 4 months ago I discover Aspergers (and read everything I could about it). So, I am still learning each and every day. And, the more I read, the more I understand why I have had so much difficulty in social situations (particularly work). It’s like we’re at the same table, but playing an entirely different game. No wonder I always feel like I am losing and the odds are stacked against me. I never learned how to play (and probably don’t have the capacity to learn). Yikes.

Help me Mr. Wizard! (you have to be from my generation to get the reference).



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24 May 2013, 7:54 pm

Rocket123 wrote:
marshall wrote:
As for me, there's absolutely no way I could follow all that was going on there. I wouldn't survive. :shaking:


It’s friggin astounding. I go through 50 years of life in complete oblivion. I spent over 25 years working in corporate hell. Then 4 months ago I discover Aspergers (and read everything I could about it). So, I am still learning each and every day. And, the more I read, the more I understand why I have had so much difficulty in social situations (particularly work). It’s like we’re at the same table, but playing an entirely different game. No wonder I always feel like I am losing and the odds are stacked against me. I never learned how to play (and probably don’t have the capacity to learn). Yikes.

Help me Mr. Wizard! (you have to be from my generation to get the reference).


I'd rather have a job where I don't have to deal with douchebags like that. I'd either have a complete meltdown or go postal on someone.



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24 May 2013, 8:45 pm

I had another thought. Hopefully nobody gets pissed at me for bringing political views into this but.... what the heck....

I don't think what's presented in these videos represents genuine human communication as it should be (either AS or NT). It is a type of social sickness associated with capitalism in general and business culture in particular. Business interaction creates artificial relations. It creates this suffocating atmosphere of mass denial and delusion where people are not ever aloud to voice their true thoughts. This type of environment goes far beyond politeness into a kind of passive-aggressive vileness. The corporate workplace is a kind of Orwellian environment where "Big Brother" is management. It is replete with the same mindless slogans and enforced doublethink. It is not real human interaction. It's sickness.



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24 May 2013, 9:34 pm

marshall wrote:
I'd rather have a job where I don't have to deal with douchebags like that. I'd either have a complete meltdown or go postal on someone.


marshall - Unfortunately, I made a series of poor choices early in my life. This was before I knew anything about Aspergers. Before I realized that my “wiring” was different. I was simply trying to pursue a neurotypical lifestyle. Based upon a set of “should” rules that I learned from my parents. I didn’t know any better. I didn’t realize that the “game” (as defined and developed and refereed by NTs) was rigged against me.

And, yes, dealing with “douchebags” was not fun. At times, I literally felt like putting needles in my eyes. To eliminate the pain.

The journey I took that culminated in my diagnosis, has fundamentally changed how I view the world. I am the same person. But, I realize how I am different than NTs (I always knew I was somehow different, I just never took the time to understand how).

From here, I am hoping that I can go forward, apply the knowledge and skills that I developed over my lifetime and have some sort of positive influence on the world (no matter how small). And do so without having to deal with those “douchebags” any more.