Are you aware of your lacking Theory of Mind?

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I assure you I am quite well aware that I like to survive, and so do billions of other people on this planet.

I do feel a lack of ToM. I understand logically that other people have mental states different to myself and I would have no problem with the Sally Ann test because it is a logical problem, but when I am talking to other people I don't consciously consider it. I relate to people as if they have the same intentions as I do. I also take people at their word and assume they mean what they say and I don't lie or try to manipulate and I think they would know it if I did. I only talk to communicate honestly and assume others are doing the same. When mulling over a conversation afterwards however, I may realize something they said seems not quite right. People have told me that I am naive and let other people walk all over me and that I shouldn't do that. I don't know what to do about it because I don't understand the thinking of people who try to manipulate people.

Last edited by Marybird on 29 May 2013, 8:56 pm, edited 1 time in total.

So now your saying specifically that poor theory of mind causes executive dysfunction? I really don't like using myself as a counter-example because my perception of myself could be wrong but as far as I can tell I have executive dysfunction without any deficits in theory of mind. So my executive dysfunction was caused by nothing?

To answer your question as to whether or not I am aware of myself lacking theory of mind I am not aware of any deficits I might have. I am aware that I had no theory of mind whatsoever up until grade 6. I am also aware that I experienced accelerated growth after grade 6 and that processing speed was not remedied by that even though theory of mind seems to have been. If I still thought like I did a decade ago I would be completely incapable of guessing my opponents moves during certain strategic games and I definitely wouldn't be able to figure out who said something when told what was said and that one of six people said it.

For everything that I get, am I also missing something else? I don't know. I wonder about it. I know I am getting something when I get it but I lack the confidence (maybe it would be arrogance) to not wonder if there are unknown-unknowns that would reveal how much I'm missing. As far as I know I do not have difficulties with theory of mind because if I miss something I don't know realize I missed it and when I get it I know I get it.

He's not really describing executive function for that matter.

I have pretty severe executive function problems, but they aren't really related to not knowing what I need to do - I know what I need to do, but I can't really organize sufficiently to do it reliably.

I do have theory of mind issues, I remember when I explicitly realized things about other people having their own thoughts/experiences/existence. But I don't see how these things could possibly lead to executive dysfunction.

I also think many autistic people develop theory of mind to some degree, just later than NTs. This doesn't necessarily minimize their other impairments.

Overall, I think qawer would receive more constructive replies if he didn't try to generalize his personal experiences to autism as a category.

Is generalizing his personal experiences to autism as a category the result of Theory of Mind deficit?

Possibly!

I've made similar mistakes in the past, and it took some doing to stop.

I think many people generalize to some extent.

What is described in the OP, the successor posts, and past posts by the same author is an arguement that Aspies are missing key human behaviors (desire to live, awareness of self, etc.), but yet somehow manage to eat, drink, and otherwise function.

I disagree with the OP.

qawer - There's an interesting paper authored by Minshew and Goldstein on this topic. It's a good read.

I have never and still do not understand what Executive Function or Theory of Mind are.

in a nutshell-

*executive function=effectively running your life with all its myriad details ordered correctly.
*Theory of Mind=understanding that other people have entirely separate thought processes from one's self - "I know that you know, that I know that you know..."

Thanks.

I have good theory of mind then, but am not as sure about executive function. I mean, in some ways yes but then again I'm fairly self critical, but, I can't say I am one of those super directed people. It wouldn't be currently be very accurate.

I have pretty good to very good executive function only because I have developed a routine (and I use lists, iphone apps, and reminders) for doing everything that ensures I get it all done and take care of myself (90% of the time, anyway). Add the least little bit of stress or screw up my routine, however, and I'm a bit lost.

I think my ToM is poor, however. I find it very, very, very hard to make the leap. Frequently, people will say things to me like "you know what I mean" ... no, I really don't know what you mean. Unless someone /tells/ me what they're thinking, I have a hard time inferring what their state of mind might be like. I think I have even confused myself here.

TL DR:

EXECUTIVE FUNCTION GOOD. ToM BAD.

I associate Executive Function with the ability to easily brainstorm, organize, plan, or be able to quickly summarize an idea. It's an aspect of brain functioning that isn't directly associated with intelligence. It's possible to be highly intelligent yet struggle academically or at work due to executive function problems. Despite getting higher grades it generally took me much longer to complete assignments than others. It's something people with ADHD and people on the autism spectrum both seem to struggle with.

Theory of Mind is just the ability to instinctively put yourself in someone else's shoes while keeping their knowledge, thoughts, and motives separate from your own. You can Google the Sally-Ann test if you want. This test supposedly tests for theory-of-mind in children, but I don't think it's quite as much of an all-or-nothing either-or trait as the test makes it sound. There are gray areas and it's not a straightforward thing to test in intelligent adults.

Last edited by marshall on 30 May 2013, 1:11 am, edited 1 time in total.

My one aspie friend IRL is like this. Her executive functioning is really good but she still has problems with TOM. For me, my theory of mind is good on paper, my reading comprehension is pretty good but it's bad in real time social interaction. My executive functioning sucks but it has improved a lot compared to when I was younger. My central coherence is weak though, at-least it was pointed out on my psychiatric reports that I focused too much on details and ignored the whole picture and I've been told that by others too.

That's just like lacking the empathy stuff, right?

I mean, not being able to see and feel from the other side emotionally (without it being explained to you), and similar stuff?

I just attribute most of that to most people being morons (other than not feeling if someone is experiencing something bad and I don't feel and care because I have no reference point, of course).

I think I'm pretty aware of my lack of TOM. I spend my days in confusion, and that would be why.