Article-Undiagnosing Einstein, Gates, Jefferson by J Mitchel

Post Reply New Topic

AS-ness and NT-ness have become something like zodiacal signs. Be careful for Forer effect with both of them. I too find this article stereotyping autism a lot (even though I haven't the actual experience of meeting an aspie).

I think the worst arguement was Einstein being/not-being a late talker. This arguement is based entirely on the fact Einstein is confronted with classical autism symptoms and not AS', while Jefferson and Gates were instead confronted with AS.

And yes, I think looking younger should be a non-diagnostic symptom of AS (something about testosterone production), but maybe I'll ask it in the forum.

His ideas about "full-blown Tourette's" involving "shouting profanities" are also rooted in stereotype: It's only a minority of people with Tourette's who do that, and as far as I know it has nothing at all to do with the severity. (I probably have mild Tourette's and coprolalia, for instance.)

I've always been a little suspicious of all those retroactive diagnoses. On the other hand, the above article reeks of bitterness.

Yeah, I'm suspicious of the retrodiagnosis thing too, but not for the same reasons as this guy.

Djrx is correct. Roger Bannister went on to become a prominent neurologist and wrote several books on neurology. He also wrote his autobiography, The Four Minute Mile, and wrote a book on education. I like him because he had wide ranging interests. His story is a great source of inspiration to me. He has also been married to his wife, Moyra, for over 50 years. He was knighted by Queen Elizabeth II in 1975.

Roger Bannister doesn't sound like someone who could be Asperger to me. I've read about him. I don't know why anyone would get the idea of him being an aspie. And Jonathan Mitchell is right about Autistic Spectrum Disorders doing far more bad than they do good. A combination of Asperger, ADD, and Depression has never done me one iota of good in life. I just keep bouncing endlessly from job to job to job because of incompetence. I've had a girlfriend for the last 4 years but we'll never be as close as I want. I've got only one real close friend. I'm the type of socially and professionally bankrupt person whom if I didn't exist I could not be imagined.

That's my take, and it's why I wish the morons at Attwood's would stop talking about Einstein, Grandin, and Newton, and that we too, those of us with Asperger's can achieve things like them too (you have to be nonverbal as an adult to have Autism to them, which would mean that there's only about...6% of the whole spectrum with Autism)! Why don't they talk about Hitler and Martin Bryant [who is actually diagnosed]? O wait, they didn't do "good" things for society, even though they're just as famous as the "good" people.

There's some factual errors in the initial post (only about 1/5 of those with Autistic Disorder develop normally until the age of two, and they then stagnate or lose their verbal ability. The others never gain it).

That's exactly what I was thinking while I was reading it. I hadn't heard half of the facts he mentioned before, and didn't even know about Jefferson, but dang, if they're disproved, I guess I'm not on the spectrum either =(

There's also a lot of contradictory evidence...one minute he says Einstein was a late talker, and says this proves nothing, the next minute he says Jefferson is disproved because he doesn't have childhood records. He also tries to take into account the context of some of the claims (like Gates memorizing the Bible), but fails to mention the context of some of Jefferson's...one claimed him as an eloquent speaker, perhaps he was going on about an obsession? His daughter only saw him lose his temper a few times, but how severe was it? And what was it over?

I don't know, I think I'm fine with the label "suspected on the spectrum, but since they aren't alive anymore, we'll never know". Or in Gates's case, "we'll never know unless they come out about it". It's not really necessary to know, but it's interesting to think about. And like any other "minority" group, it's nice to have people to root for.

Wow, the article is much too long. I only read until the author started on Gates.

But I want to say that I don't understand why anyone needs such or other roles models? Well, I realise there must be a reason, but one I cannot understand. Who cares if Einstein who did awesome things was autistic?

He wasn't me. So what's it my business whether he was autistic, eccentric or something else?

It's not the autism itself that has any value. No neurology, no IQ, no appearance is worth anything by itself. It's the person themselves.

Well, I at least don't care whether autistic people maker good strategists, mathematics professors or scientists. I rather wonder: What good will I do? As a whole person with lots of parts combined together in a most individual way?

I can't relate to anybody else's success or anything else about them. It doesn't make me think or feel or think anything.

I've actually met Bill Gates twice and spent four hours with him in a meeting when I was an employee of Microsoft. While he does have a few eccentricities, I have also met 3 other billionaire executives from other companies and his behaviors are remarkably in-line with other hard-charging, competitive, smart people. Whether he has an official AS dx like I do is interesting to consider, but so what if he is or isn't an Aspie? I worked hard to learn the skills (business, technical, and social) to succeed to the point of meeting Mr. Gates, and isn't that in itself the real lesson? I agree with other posters that it is far more inpiring to learn from those "normal" Aspies and Auties who had to work especially hard to achieve in spite of their difficulties.

Mitchell doesn't know what he is talking about AT ALL!! !! !

cerebral palsy does NOT cause rocking! It is damage to motor neurons, usually due to a brief lack of oxygen as an infant. PERIOD!

AS or Autism does NOT guarantee that the person will go out of their way to have bad hygiene. Frankly, I am usually the cleanest around, etc.... Many here said similar things about themselves. I won't necessarily shave, etc..., HECK, I only a couple hours ago got new shoes! My last shoes were in a SORRY state for MONTHS! But I try t take at least one shower every day, and am thorough.

There are a lot of statements about Gates, and some I now KNOW are true, that point to AS. Earlier behavior that has been DOCUMENTED and he has said was accurate, indicate something like Autism.

Einstein has some things that point to autism also.

As for jefferson? We may never know. He was seen as intelligent, mechanically inclined, and artistic(I spelled that right, I didn't say autistic). Frankly, that was SOMEWHAT unique, but it WAS a good pasttime! Benjamin franklin, Michael Faraday, etc... did some of the same.

Wait a minute... I forgot half-way though that this post is just a quote from some guy with a computer. I was reading it as though it was painstakingly assembled by one of our own. I was going to be nice...

I am not overly impressed by Temple Grandin, either. Nice lady, but I don't think she knows what she's talking about.

I don’t hear the famous Aspie list as an attempt to lift anyone’s self-esteem or that "we too, those of us with Asperger's, can achieve things like them."
That is not why I would make such a list.

Personally, I don't need or want a role model. That's not why I want to know about people like Einstein, Jefferson, Newton and Bobby Fischer. I would like to add Moses to the list, along with whoever invented the wheel and figured out how to control fire.

The point is that it's a spectrum. Everyone counts, not just the severely disabled.

If they belong on the list, I would be happy to include Michael Jackson, Mike Tyson and the unabomber Theodore Kaczynsi. (Although I would prefer to exclude any current lunatics who use Autism as an excuse in a criminal case. I don’t buy it as a legal defense.)

(Even if Bill Gates really is an Aspie, and even if he knew or suspected, what would he gain by going public? That is an individual choice, and forcing it on someone who is still among the living would be wrong.)

I want the truth, raw and straight-up. The big boys give the picture some balance. Without them, people will only hear about the negative effects and get a very imbalanced impression. It’s a spectrum, and most people are in the middle. The vast majority of Aspies are undiagnised and clueless, because they do not have a problem.

Personally, I doubt that Autism alone would even be a problem. I think it becomes a severe disability when combined with other conditions (genetic or medical) and environmental factors (chemical, social, whatever).

I certainly believe that it is "some kind of gift that society could not live without."
I DO believe that "the speculation about Einstein, Jefferson, Newton and others is helpful."

Of course it should not be "cured." The only possible cure is a labotomy. And the only way to prevent it is via genocide. The right way to go is to find preventions and treatments that would enhance rather than crush the good parts, which would result in more Autistic people being able to function and more Aspies being able to dazzle the world with their amazing talents.


And by the way, the unibomber was not a “mass murderer.” He killed exactly three people. Tripple murders happen all the time, and normally they barely make the local newspaper. People only get worked up about Kaczynsi because he was strange. And because they can’t think of anything better to do.

In contrast, we have mass murderers who are polite and socially acceptable, and no one complains at all. Killing people by the thousands is ok as long as you do it with a wink and a smile.

While we're all hanging around WP, contemplating each other's toes, I don't suppose that anyone has noticed that we have a mass murderer in the White House who has completely shredded the constitution, who disregards our most basic laws at every turn, and that we are virtually living under marshall law? Acknowledging this situation is considered "rude." Not that anyone would even bother to deny it any more. It's just that it's too rude to say it outloud.

I thought not. As you were, then. Don't mind me.

ACTUALLY, Kaczynski created bombs that were designed like anti personell mines! They used IDENTICAL technology for the SAME goals! They were designed to attract attention, and MAIM anyone that was curious enough to try to touch them. So he didn't seek to murder, but to MAIM people! And people have every reason to hate him for THAT!



I agree with you there, but everyone with half a brain knows that!



Actually, Clinton isn't president anymore!

You're going to have to explain that one.


(I don't know how many were "maimed," but Kaczynski killed 3 and wounded 23.)

I would say that it helps parents. It sends the message that an autistic child is not a write-off. It might inspire them to actually learn more and do more about helping the child gain skills and build a full life that's suited to their needs and abilities.

It's probably not a bad thing for humanity in general, either, since it shows that human beings, including those with all manner of disability, are often capable of greatness.

It is lame that this kind of talk always centers on extreme high-achievement. Examples of people with more ordinary achievements are rarely held up. That'd make a decent book, come to think of it, just a bunch of double-page spreads of photos of people working and living and being whole with who they are.

But if you want for extreme, well, I bet there's nobody who could effectively refute the forensic diagnoses of Nikola Tesla's autism.

I heard at least one had his arm blown off, and that he put nails, etc... in the package.