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Willard
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03 Feb 2014, 12:52 pm

Norny wrote:
What happens if the parents of autistic individuals that fall in to that category strictly prohibit rituals and enforce lots of changes gradually such as in cognitive behavioural therapy?

Would the result be something like permanent meltdowns and/or shutdowns, or could this work in the long run to mitigate/abolish relevant behaviours due to neuroplasticity and conditioning?


LoveNotHate wrote:
Changes were inflicted upon me growing up, and the "order expectancy" did not go away.


I don't believe any amount of conditioning can change the wiring in your brain that makes you autistic, or we would all outgrow it. Believe me, the world at large, not to mention my parents when I was growing up, have all INSISTED on changing every autistic thing about me and after half a century, they have all FAILED. Overcoming a phobia with CBT is a mental exercise and as such, a world away from rewiring neural processing connections.

bumble wrote:
I tried changing my routines, it does not really work very well. It does not help that I actually function better with my routines than without them, even if to other people some of them seem unnecessary or odd.


It's always struck me that it's the constant barrage of high intensity sensory data keeping us on the verge of being overwhelmed by the inability to process it all, that creates the NEED to maintain routine. Knowing that unexpected changes and sudden switches from one field of focus to another are likely to put us in overload, it's only natural that we should attempt to keep the parts of our lives over which we CAN exercise some control, in strict order, to keep surprises to a minimum.

That being the case, insisting that an autistic forcibly change their routines, just to prove to outsiders that it can be done, is indeed, a form of torture. Just because you can accomplish it doesn't mean you SHOULD, and in the long term, is likely to cause severe psychological and emotional damage.

StatsNerd wrote:
1. Rewarding gradual change has been shown to work well with people with ASD, even with severe symptomology. For behavioral change to really work, the key is to target one behavior at a time, not lots of changes, otherwise whatever the reward is loses its effectiveness.


Reducing an autistic human being to the level of a Pavlovian dog. The very definition of "dehumanization."

arielhawksquill wrote:
Routines develop to compensate for poor executive functioning. If you introduce a constant element of change into the life of a routine-following autistic, I think you would just teach them to think, "Oh well, I can never plan for anything so I might as well stop trying" and become totally passive and non-functional. People on the spectrum need time to think things through beforehand and pre-plan as much as possible, because it's much harder to understand what is going on when one is in the moment.


Sweetleaf wrote:
That would be a terrible thing to do to an autistic child...some of these 'rituals' could be calming and too much change is just simply too much change which can cause a lot of stress. I think at some point someone with autism has to learn sometimes there will be changes they can't control and learn coping skills to help deal with those situations...but just forcing constant change would probably create some kind of stress disorder.


Precisely. And I can attest from personal experience, that's exactly what it does. It makes one afraid to try anything by turning every experience of everyday life into one giant endless anxiety attack.



Ettina
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04 Feb 2014, 4:08 pm

Quote:
What happens if the parents of autistic individuals that fall in to that category strictly prohibit rituals and enforce lots of changes gradually such as in cognitive behavioural therapy?

Would the result be something like permanent meltdowns and/or shutdowns, or could this work in the long run to mitigate/abolish relevant behaviours due to neuroplasticity and conditioning?


Fear is an emotional state caused by the (conscious or unconscious) expectation that an aversive experience is about to occur.

Conditioning away fear works by exposing the person to the feared situation while ensuring that the aversive experience does not take place.

So, the question is - among people with insistence on routines, what are they afraid will happen if something changes, and can we prevent that happening?

I've done a lot of thinking about why autistics often hate change. And my theory is that it's because change is overloading.

See, one of the most basic forms of learning is habituation - with most kinds of stimuli, if you are repeatedly exposed to them, your response to them becomes less pronounced. For example, one time there was a spider living in my home. I discovered that if I blew on the spider, she would curl up and play dead. However, over time, she stopped curling up when I blew on her. This demonstrates habituation.

Habituation occurs on a neurological level too, in the form of reduced neural activity to a repeated stimulus. It also occurs on the level of internal experience, with the person no longer being consciously aware of a stimulus (unless reminded) once they've habituated to it.

Overload is essentially when too much is sent to conscious awareness, and this outstrips the limited processing power of the conscious mind. It's more common in autistics because our brains are less good at weeding out irrelevant stimuli before they reach conscious awareness. If you are habituated to a situation, you won't be consciously aware of as many details about it, and as a result, you're less likely to become overloaded in that situation.

So, if they can expose the child to change without causing overload, then they could condition the child to tolerate change better. But since overload is inherently aversive, the more times the child gets overloaded by a change in routine, the worse their fear of change will become.



KingdomOfRats
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04 Feb 2014, 6:02 pm

Norny wrote:
Disclaimer: I don't really have a thorough grasp on how therapy works nor any other 'treatments' for autism, so if the following appears uninformed that's why.

I'm aware that autistics (more often those that aren't high functioning/Asperger's) are often afraid of change, and as a result have rituals and other behaviours to keep order. What happens if the parents of autistic individuals that fall in to that category strictly prohibit rituals and enforce lots of changes gradually such as in cognitive behavioural therapy?

Would the result be something like permanent meltdowns and/or shutdowns, or could this work in the long run to mitigate/abolish relevant behaviours due to neuroplasticity and conditioning?


EDIT - Also, does it necessarily have to be a fear of change, or can it be something like an annoyance/hatred of it instead?

am only able to speak of own experience with this,but in own case the exact circumstances above;a lot of changes in life and routine ended in multiple big police incidents and self/KoR being detained under the mental capacity act on a section three for four months in a secure intelectual disability A&T hospital called greenways.
are welcome to read the blog of mine to see experiences of what happened and what the hospital was like,though theres only so many ways to call something a hellhole.
was released in december but there were changes to routine so ended up in another big police incident again and was redetained until jan twenty second.



StatsNerd
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04 Feb 2014, 7:35 pm

Willard wrote:

StatsNerd wrote:
1. Rewarding gradual change has been shown to work well with people with ASD, even with severe symptomology. For behavioral change to really work, the key is to target one behavior at a time, not lots of changes, otherwise whatever the reward is loses its effectiveness.


Reducing an autistic human being to the level of a Pavlovian dog. The very definition of "dehumanization."


For starters: the principles demonstrated by Pavlov have virtually nothing to do with behavior management and change as it relates to this topic.

That said, principles of behaviorism are at work in virtually every facet of daily life. My favorite example of negative reinforcement is the beeping sound the car makes when it first starts; that noise stops when the seat belt is connected. The noise is interpreted by most people (NT or otherwise) as a negative; clicking the seatbelt in removes the negative. That's negative reinforcement. Have automobile manufacturers reduced people who can hear to the level of a Pavlovian dog? I guess (even though this example is also not Pavlovian conditioning), but somehow I just don't feel dehumanized by Honda.

Nicotine replacement products (Nicorette, Nicoderm, etc.) work on the the behaviorist principle of extinction. Smoking (behavior) is replaced by the patch/gum/lozenge; over time, the use of that product is reduced, until the need for it is gone. Again, not dehumanizing.

I used positive reinforcement to get my husband to wash the dishes. At first, every time he washed the dishes after dinner, I made a big deal of thanking him and giving him a beer. Very quickly, he figured out that I appreciated what he was doing. Dehumanizing? Eh. I don't think so; even if it is, the bottom line is, my husband washes dishes.

Not all behavior change is bad. Not all behavioral change programs are bad. Okay?

Going back to the original post, I think parents of an autistic child (1) strictly prohibiting rituals, and (2) enforcing lots of changes, are courting disaster. If a behavior/ritual isn't maladaptive, why mess with it? Even if the child is going to therapy to learn a behavior (so, positive reinforcement; and again, this is not Pavlovian conditioning), it's not going to work if the child can't figure out what new behavior is being reinforced.



em_tsuj
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04 Feb 2014, 9:35 pm

Norny wrote:
Disclaimer: I don't really have a thorough grasp on how therapy works nor any other 'treatments' for autism, so if the following appears uninformed that's why.

I'm aware that autistics (more often those that aren't high functioning/Asperger's) are often afraid of change, and as a result have rituals and other behaviours to keep order. What happens if the parents of autistic individuals that fall in to that category strictly prohibit rituals and enforce lots of changes gradually such as in cognitive behavioural therapy?

Would the result be something like permanent meltdowns and/or shutdowns, or could this work in the long run to mitigate/abolish relevant behaviours due to neuroplasticity and conditioning?


EDIT - Also, does it necessarily have to be a fear of change, or can it be something like an annoyance/hatred of it instead?


I don't know. I bet it would be torturous for the child though.



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04 Feb 2014, 10:28 pm

Quote:
So, the question is - among people with insistence on routines, what are they afraid will happen if something changes, and can we prevent that happening?


The problem is that it's not fear. When things change suddenly and unexpectedly, I have trouble because it's a lot of new information to process, and I have to respond very quickly, which I have trouble doing.
I don't FEAR that this will happen. This HAPPENS.
The only way to prevent it is to give me fair warning of upcoming changes wherever possible.


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