Lecture by Uta Frith the 29th of August 2011.

Post Reply New Topic

I have a thought:

It seems that quite a number of people on the spectrum have been made believe that ToM is "knowing / predicting what other people think, want and are going to do", or that empathy is "feeling what others feel". (Even though NTs don't really do that either).

If we realized that it was not about reading minds in some kind of "magical" way - maybe we might in fact have more ToM / empathy than we (and some NTs) think?

I have a thought too.

AAAH F**K!! !! !! !!

Reading minds is a part of ToM? If normal people can do that, than I'm the Pope.

This idea of ToM creates alot of misinterpretation, and fiction fantasy interpretation.

People who came up with this idea should drop the subject, and move on.

It is also states that these ToM "Theorists" believe that animals do not posess the same thinking abilities as humans. Another farce. Individual animals have single traits of somekind that we posess. Some have instincts that we could never be able to use or understand as humans. This is why older cultures use animal spirits to define individuals, and understand ourselves.

I still believe ToM is an invention created by narcissists, and sociopaths. Why else would fact and fiction be intertwined in such a way. It is invariably the way those people think, and leaves the dominant thinking in the hands of a controlling factor that doesn't really make much sence. It can also be very charming to the point of being superficial.

Than again, I may be very wrong, so please, forgive me for being me.

I am not sure that it is an invention created by narcissists and sociopaths.
But I think it would be interesting with some research on what´s the difference is between autistic lack of ToM, and NTs' using theirs mainly on people who are like themselves.
NTs are different from autistics too, so what is the difference?
Maybe it's just a human trait not to understand people who are not like oneself. But when autistics are a minority, it may seem to NTs that we don't "understand other people" in general?
Then they demand more of us that they think it is reasonable to demand of themselves - and call it a disability? (I am not saying that there are no disabilities in autism.)

Maybe I'm totally wrong here. It's just a kind of pocket theory I have.

It's quite funny to see how often NTs e.g. say things like: "I don't understand how you can like / eat this food, I don't like it".
While as for me, I wouldn't say that to a person who ate something I didn't like, for I know that different people like different things (and besides, I'm not the one who is eating it, so why should I bother?)
So, in fact, it seems that my reaction is more ToM-like than theirs - even though I'm the one on the spectrum, and they are the NTs... even though it's only about a banality like what food you like.

Or maybe it's because of my logical aspie thinking - using my mere knowledge of different taste.

Or it is about how some NT people define "understanding" something.
It often seems to me that NTs think they have to "feel" everything in order to "understand" it. (Or not everything, but many things),. But often you'll have to just understand things cognitively.

A lot of times it also seems like the (attempt of) "putting oneself in another's shoes" in fact is quite the opposite: putting the other in one's own shoes.

Another exampe is when my NT sister once told me that she didn't understand why I didn't think like her (maybe not in these words, but something similar). Even though she knew about my diagnosis.
You could also ask where the ToM had gone in that case.
Or it was just about the difference between understanding with feelings or understanding cognitively.

I have been thinking about this a bit lately. I think the “magic” in ToM is the ability to do this in real-time, while you are interacting with another individual.



This is something that is really hard for me to do. Not surprisingly, my own neuropsychological testing exposed issues with complex memory processing, which impacts Executive Functioning and Multi-Tasking.

Now, I can do it after the fact. Say, I am having a conversation. Maybe 5 minutes later. Or several hours later. Or maybe the next day. I can think about what was said and consider various reasons why the other person said what they said. I can build a decision tree. And, evaluate probabilities of what the other person could possibly be thinking. I may even realize I said something wrong. But, I cannot do this real-time.

The second video I posted included a test at 52:17 developed by Southgate, Senju and Csibra. I needed an additional split second to think through what was happening to pick the right box. And this is simple exercise. Imagine what is happening in a conversation.

While I could be wrong, based upon some of the tests they use for Theory of Mind (e.g. Sally Anne Test, etc.), I now believe that this that this is simply yet another instance of Complex Information Processing. There is a really good paper on this, describing Autism as a disorder of Complex Information Processing <click>.

It's the same for me. I just cannot do all of these things in real-time. I can do them later and have delayed reactions to things, but I can't put it all together in the moment.

Note to self.

ToM is a foolish child. He is unevolved, and needs to grow up. People don't need to read me. I don't need to relate. Learn the language, do the math. It is what it is. Individuality defines us. I don't care about a facial expression. Tell me how you feel, and what you want. My face may remain blank. My voice, monotone. I say so what. You wanna learn about another mind, learn about the matrix. Remote view. If you have the mentality of a goat, because you're missing feelings or whatever, than you will be SOL.

Tinkerbell is a babe, but she is not real, and I don't need to know it.

ToM believers read me wrong, and it is almost never a good thing. It is just stupid.

Interpretation of misinterpretation of Theory of Mind...

Of course. I'm sorry. I really need to stop watching this post. This internal lie detector garble is for the birds. Well, for me anyways.

Please elaborate. I am a bit confused.

I watched all the Uta Frith videos I could find on youtube, enjoyed them all.

But I was really annoyed, when she described the test they used to determine whether autistic children could lie (this one: http://www.icn.ucl.ac.uk/dev_group/ufri ... 20copy.pdf).

The NT children were commended for their ability to lie? Huh? Maybe this is why I find NT society to be so twisted and sick and sociopathic.

I think most children of that age are told by their parents not to lie, yet the NT child is supposed to figure out that this only applies in certain situations, while the autistic child would probably take it literally to NEVER lie in any situation.

I agree. I find the entire deception thing quite annoying. Somehow, these NT children learn that it is OK. And then, they become very good at it. And then, they become NT adults. Where deception becomes expected.

For me, I was never good at lying/deception. So I just avoided doing it. For a couple of reasons. First, it was wrong. Second, it was too difficult.

Notes:
a) I am not surprised that people with Aspergers have problems finding jobs. They are competing on an un-level plane, with NT's who will say just about anything to get the job. I now surmise that part of the interview process is attempting to detect this deception.
b) Per my diagnosis, I have issues with complex information processing, particularly with unstructured information. The truth is always structured. A deception is always unstructured (as one lie may require subsequent lies to back it up). Which is why it is difficult for me to do.

AAAAAAHHH F***! !! !! !! I'm still here!! !! ! Getting a job is easy for me. Keeping one. No. I am a very good automotive mechanic. The service writers are almost never honest. It is a prerequisite. No one is going to tell you that, but it is true. The district managers in corporate shops. NPD all the way. No one is going to tell you that either. The really bad ones NPD+APD= sociopath. Alot of shops have at least one APD technician. He is the money man. No feelings, just money, doesn't care. All of them will charm you for the money. And yes NT's believe it is a coping skill of somekind, as if it is a usable item. And yes, it belongs in the theory of mind thing. Apparently you are born a narcissist, and grow your way out of it. Apparently most people do not, but that is o.k. because it is theory of mind.

How big of a gap is there between mentally abusive pathological liar and santa clause??

I really need to try to get off of this post again, or I will go on and on and on and on.

It is pointless. Sociopaths, and ToM will always win... something... because that is all they will care to do. Make you believe whatever, and win.

Please forgive me for being me.

I concur

That was very interesting. Especially the quote about how much you have to do in one split second. It made really good sense.

Still I think it's two different things: Being able to do it in real-time doesn't make it a "prediction" or "knowing" what others are thinking. Likewise, if you are only able to do it afterwards it doesn't have to mean that your guess is wrong.

I don't think I have seen it described it that way - that it's just a question about ToM functioning "later". Not in short descriptions, at least.

Unfortunately my computer couldn't show the paper you linked to. But as said before: It makes really good sense to me with the "complex information" thing. We also see it in the fact that we on the spectrum often have a hard time coping with many inputs, including informational and sensory inputs, and sorting them.

Sometimes I wonder how much of the social disability is in fact rooted in this problem with processing informations / inputs, sensory issues, and such?
Maybe we can say that sometimes the social issues in fact are "just" a result of the main trait: processing issues?

Kind of like you would not call e.g. hearing issues a "social disability", though it may result in problems with social interaction?

Just another pocket theory.....

Last edited by AnnePande on 26 Feb 2014, 6:37 am, edited 1 time in total.

Another (un?)qualified guess:

ToM may also be difficult for us because people seem to change ideas unexpectedly?

The NT world can be really confusing and unpredictable for us on the spectrum, you know.
E.g. some of us may have experienced that the "rules" seem to change all the time... and then it's not that easy to make a qualified guess, because the world is not as logical as our minds / our thinking tend to be.

Maybe ToM is just a form of surfdom, that puts us at the lowest part of the totem pole. According to the ToM people who are obviously NT's, believe that lying is a good thing, because that means you dont believe people think just like you. So liers (NT's), tell you that lying is good. I have learned that people do believe they think just like them. To the point that they are wrong alot. They believe that everyone lies. Just like them. They believe in the same religions, lie about it, and are brainwashed into thinking just like everyone else. Stuff like that. Just using religion as an example. Of all this theory of mind garble that I have read, there is absolutley nothing in there about INDIVIDUALITY. Creativity (other than fictitious lies), or any actual non fiction (real) inventive behavior. In fact alot of the time in history NT's have discredited, or tried to discredit new inventive global changing works.

When people come across to me with this theory of mind garble, it always sets me off. It is one of those things where I know something is wrong, and I cannot put my finger on it. In this case, I do not believe it is me.

I tried to put this hogwash behind me, but I woke up to another stupid theory of mind thought, and now im here again.