Lack of facial expression when you were a baby?

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daydreamer84
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23 Mar 2014, 5:04 pm

btbnnyr wrote:
It would be difficult for parents and teachers to notice no apparent deviations from normal development in an autistic kid until age 11 or 12. Some people are not diagnosed until adulthood, but the abnormalities were noticed in childhood during childhood, just there was no knowledge of autism to account for them, or maybe parents didn't want to evaluate their children for anything. There is no way for autistic children to mask their autistic behaviors or compensate for lack of neurotypical behaviors in early childhood. If you developed problems starting from 11 or 12 and lacked autistic traits as child (like not fitting criteria when you were five), then you don't have autism no matter the development of autistic-like behaviors in later life. Many disorders have traits that appear similar to autistic traits, but underlying causes are different and not good to label autism without variety of autistic traits and fitting criteria in childhood.


This.

There are a couple pictures of me grinning as a child but in the vast majority I either have a spacey/far-off stare or a completely bizarre look and I'm holding a string in a lot of them. There were a couple where I was holding a doll like a normal girl though. In a couple my eyes are wide open like in Adam Lanza's pic that everyone said looked more psychopathic than autistic :lol: In a couple my eyes are barely open almost completely shut even though I'm not falling asleep. I have awkward, rigid body postures in many of them. In one, which my mum for some reason has a few copies of , I'm around 13 and I'm making a weird gesture with my hand and my nose is scrunched up and eyes squinty. When I hear noises I hate I make that face and other times too. It's been called a strange mannerism of mine. I don't have a scanner but my mum is planning to go with me to Kinkos and scan all of our pictures so we can get rid of the physical photo albums she stores in her room. When we do this I'll post them either in this thread or a new thread I'll start for childhood photos and show everyone.



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23 Mar 2014, 7:11 pm

KingdomOfRats wrote:
gizalba-ever heard of mirror neurons?
these are said to be dysfunctional in many of us with autism,in those with dysfunctional mirror neurons the person is unable to mimick behaviors,mannerisms etc.
just a thought-sounds like this might be connected.


The first one, who gave me a informal "presumed" dx, said "rubbish", when I mentioned mirror neurons. He was a professor of psychology at a university and had specialized in autism spectrum. He never heard of them.
Perhaps the existence of mirror neurons is only a very speculative suggestion.


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Jensen
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23 Mar 2014, 7:13 pm

KingdomOfRats wrote:
gizalba-ever heard of mirror neurons?
these are said to be dysfunctional in many of us with autism,in those with dysfunctional mirror neurons the person is unable to mimick behaviors,mannerisms etc.
just a thought-sounds like this might be connected.


The first one to give me a informal "presumed" dx, said "rubbish", when I mentioned mirror neurons. He was a professor of psychology at a university and had specialized in autism spectrum. He never heard of them.
Perhaps the existence of those mirror neurons is only a very speculative suggestion.


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KingdomOfRats
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23 Mar 2014, 7:18 pm

Jensen wrote:
KingdomOfRats wrote:
gizalba-ever heard of mirror neurons?
these are said to be dysfunctional in many of us with autism,in those with dysfunctional mirror neurons the person is unable to mimick behaviors,mannerisms etc.
just a thought-sounds like this might be connected.


The first one to give me a informal "presumed" dx, said "rubbish", when I mentioned mirror neurons. He was a professor of psychology at a university and had specialized in autism spectrum. He never heard of them.
Perhaps the existence of those mirror neurons is only a very speculative suggestion.

there hasnt been enough research into it as its still a modern discovery and without hardcore scientific evidence profs all over the world will usualy argue against theories.
its credible and interesting though as it makes a lot of sense.


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Jensen
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23 Mar 2014, 8:14 pm

Well, it is a thought...


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Acedia
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23 Mar 2014, 10:18 pm

Gizalba wrote:
I did not show any obvious signs when I was young -


I'm sorry that you had such a hard time growing up. Speak to your parents and get a better understanding of your childhood days.

It could be OCD, generalized anxiety disorder and Bipolar? Obviously I'm no professional.

---



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23 Mar 2014, 10:30 pm

Gizalba wrote:
I am wondering whether lack of facial expression or a continuous 'serious' expression would be a potential sign of autism in a baby or not?

I am wondering about being assessed for ASD but one thing that potentially flaws the theory that that is what is wrong with me, is the fact there seems to be little in my childhood that suggests it - symptoms have only got worse since I was around 12. Furthermore, my family say there was nothing about me when I was a baby that suggested autism, and as a child I seemed fine playing with others kids etc. So the only thing I wonder about is my facial expressions as a young baby. When I compare my baby photos with my brother's - he has quite animated facial expressions, he is smiling and giggling. However on all my baby photos up until around 2 my expression seems to be the same - I always look very very serious, and I never smile. After around 2 though, I do begin to smile and giggle.

I don't know if this is relevant at all, to point out to a specialist if I see one? I can't seem to find much info about it online and about what normal rate of development of facial expression in a baby is meant to be.


To this day, I still have about as many facial expressions as Bane. This was one of the features that was mentioned in the reports when I was screened for the disorder. I typically come of as very serious when talking to other people (or as a dry-witted wise guy, if I take whatever someone said literally).

As a child, I didn't have a lot of facial expressions either; I hated being touched, I hated being picked up, and although I did bond with people, I only talked about special interests. I had absolutely no empathy whatsoever as a child, and I recall beating up a neighbor child just to see how he'd react (I took no sadistic pleassure in this; I was just curious about his reaction).



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23 Mar 2014, 10:43 pm

Am told I was deadpan unless someone (usually my cousin) made a funny sound that got me to smile.



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23 Mar 2014, 10:48 pm

Kurgan wrote:
...and I recall beating up a neighbor child just to see how he'd react (I took no sadistic pleassure in this; I was just curious about his reaction).


Not on topic, but I did that too.



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24 Mar 2014, 2:37 am

Most of my baby pictures were in a lock box that was stolen when our house got broken into about 23 years ago so I haven't seen many of my baby pictures. But I noticed in the few I have seen I show little to know emotion. I am smiling in a couple, but that's about it.

There is one of me around 2 or 3 wearing the kimono dad brought back from Okinawa. I am standing in the middle of the bed and have my arms up like maybe I was dancing but my face and eyes are dead serious.

There is another where I was obviously playing in the dirt and looking at the camera with the same serious expression.



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24 Mar 2014, 12:59 pm

Acedia wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
...and I recall beating up a neighbor child just to see how he'd react (I took no sadistic pleassure in this; I was just curious about his reaction).


Not on topic, but I did that too.


Come to think of it, I noted his reaction and that of his mom. I decides to test it out on my mom a few hours later to see if she reacted the same way as his mom did.



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28 Mar 2014, 11:45 am

Acedia wrote:
Gizalba wrote:
I did not show any obvious signs when I was young -


I'm sorry that you had such a hard time growing up. Speak to your parents and get a better understanding of your childhood days.

It could be OCD, generalized anxiety disorder and Bipolar? Obviously I'm no professional.

---


Indeed I will question my parents further about how I appeared as a child, see if my parents have any videos and ask relatives who saw me then too. It is meltdown-like behaviour that I find most problematic, and that especially worries me if it happens when I get a job and I have no explanation for it, or way to explain to any employer how that potential can be reduced - if I have no diagnosis I am worried it just won't be taken seriously if I try to explain it to them in the beginning.

Despite one psychiatrist suggesting it could be a type of bipolar, another psychiatrist said it definitely was not. After researching I really don't think it is, and my panic attacks/ head banging rages, although still regular, have reduced in intensity and time-length since I have lived with my boyfriend and his family, as they listen to the fact I need to be left alone to get it all out when that happens. - anyone touching me, trying to talk to me or shouting at me just scares me more. If it was bipolar and those episodes were mania, I suspect it wouldn't have reduced without medication. I also haven't had depression in a long time, and I think the depression was only clinical when my eating disorder was at its worst.

Maybe I just have autistic traits - I don't know whether that would explain why I seem to meet so much of the autism criteria. I read some tentative research that seems to have found a higher amount of autistic traits in those who have suffered from anorexia than those in the general population - that needs further investigation though. Despite the drs telling me that the head banging wasn't part of the eating disorder, I have since found lots of families saying that their anorexic child would bang their head too. So it could be that all my symptoms are linked to the eating disorder - the OCD-like behaviour as well. I am trying to get a referral to an autism specialist for an assessment though, just to check that isn't the explanation, as I have seen so many psychiatrists and all have been confused so haven't been much help.

Apologies to people for going completely off the original topic of this thread, if I reply to anything I struggle not to go on and on in all different directions :P



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28 Mar 2014, 12:00 pm

Acedia wrote:
If you didn't display any signs of autism when you were young, then I'd say your social problems are due to shyness, anxiety and so on...


Without accounting for restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, I have always wondered how they distinguish between social anxiety, shyness and high functioning autism in, say, a 5 year old.

I still remember the "buzz of activity" when my Mom walked me into kindergarten class on the first day (I can still picture the classroom). My only thought was, "Don't leave me here". Immediately after my Mom left, I decided to leave the classroom and walk home.



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28 Mar 2014, 12:27 pm

daydreamer84 wrote:
btbnnyr wrote:
It would be difficult for parents and teachers to notice no apparent deviations from normal development in an autistic kid until age 11 or 12. Some people are not diagnosed until adulthood, but the abnormalities were noticed in childhood during childhood, just there was no knowledge of autism to account for them, or maybe parents didn't want to evaluate their children for anything. There is no way for autistic children to mask their autistic behaviors or compensate for lack of neurotypical behaviors in early childhood. If you developed problems starting from 11 or 12 and lacked autistic traits as child (like not fitting criteria when you were five), then you don't have autism no matter the development of autistic-like behaviors in later life. Many disorders have traits that appear similar to autistic traits, but underlying causes are different and not good to label autism without variety of autistic traits and fitting criteria in childhood.


This.



Thanks for this clarification - I guess the question then is: if I had been assessed for autism when I was say 5, would I have met the criteria then? I don't remember enough of my childhood without distortion in memory, to answer that myself, so I will ask my parents, relatives and maybe teachers I had at that time.

Another tangent but could I ask for your opinion/ anyone else’s opinion on the following info I have taken from Tony Attwood’s complete guide to Asperger’s?:

Quote:
P19 ‘First recognition of the clinical signs in adolescence:

…. In the early school years, social play tends to be more action than conversation, with friendships being transitory and social games relatively simple with clear rules…. The child has one teacher for the whole year and both teacher and child learn how to read each others signals and develop a working relationship.... Life is relatively simple and the child may be less aware of being different to other children, and his or her difficulties may not be conspicuous in the classroom or playground.’

The diagnostic assessment of girls:

P47 ‘There can be other strategies to avoid active participation in class proceedings, such as being well behaved and polite, this being left alone by teachers and peers… A girl with Asperger’s syndrome… is more likely than boys to develop a close friendship with someone who demonstrates a maternal attachment to this socially naïve but ‘safe’ girl. These characteristics reduce the likelihood of being identified as having one of the main diagnostic criteria for Asperger’s syndrome, namely a failure to develop peer relationships… The girl’s problems with social understanding may only become conspicuous when her friend and mentor moves to another school.’


As a child I was very quiet but very well-behaved and into working, and had one best friend who was very sociable and popular who I was inseparable from as a child until I was 11. At 11 we moved to a big school, she found new friends, and that’s when my problems with communicating and everything else, started.

When you say that
Quote:
‘It would be difficult for parents and teachers to notice no apparent deviations from normal development in an autistic kid until age 11 or 12.
’ – do you think the above excerpts are not true then, or do you just think it would be extremely rare for this to be the case?



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28 Mar 2014, 1:12 pm

Rocket123 wrote:
Without accounting for restricted, repetitive patterns of behavior, I have always wondered how they distinguish between social anxiety, shyness and high functioning autism in, say, a 5 year old.

Here are some suggestive symptoms in early childhood.
Quote:
According to a study by Gillberg et al 12 it is possible to recognise autism in infancy. The symptoms most commonly reported in a study of 28 children were peculiarities of gaze, hearing and play.

Gaze
Avoidance of eye contact is often thought to be a characteristic of children with autism. This feature is less important than the unusual quality of the gaze. Many infants do not appear to see people and so may not look people in the eye, but in the baby with autism the gaze tends to be brief and out of the corner of the eye7.

Hearing
Peculiarities of hearing seem to be especially significant. Many children with autism have been suspected of being deaf at an early stage in their lives17. Very few actually have a hearing loss, though they may not respond to their name and appear to be unaffected by audible changes in the environment. Children with autism may seem to ignore even very loud noises that would be expected to startle most ordinary children. This may be to do with a generalised lack of interest in their surroundings9. It may be due to abnormalities in perception, since children with autism can appear to be especially sensitive to certain sounds 3,16. For example, a child with autism may develop a fascination for particular sounds such as that made by a friction-driven toy, or respond to the sound of a sweet being unwrapped from a considerable distance. Other sounds may appear to cause extreme distress, such as a police siren or a barking dog.

Social development and play
In young babies, play and social activity are closely connected and it is in this sphere of development that parents may note that their child is odd. Babies with autism may show a lack of interest in the types of play that most infants enjoy, such as those which involve social interaction with the parent.

The lack of sharing activity appears to be significant. Frith and Soares's study 13 of 173 responses from parents of children with autism indicate the lack of joint interest and activity displayed by their children in the first year. Babies with autism do not point out things of interest, do not take an active part in playing baby games and do not want to share in activities. These signs were not mentioned by the control group of parents of normally-developing children.



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28 Mar 2014, 6:54 pm

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