Is trial&error the only way to learn if something's rude

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jk1
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19 Aug 2014, 5:36 pm

I learned in the same way that the use of the comparative of an adjective suggests that someone/something is already whatever that adjective means. About that person becoming "fatter", I think it's ok because she was obviously in really good shape. Calling someone like that fat is silly and can usually only be taken as a joke. Being able to talking about someone's weight openly implies that he/she is in good shape because otherwise it would be a touchy subject although each case is different. Now if someone could realistically be seen as even slightly fat, it's a totally different story. Calling someone like that fat could realistically be taken seriously and offend. I usually avoid talking about someone's appearance or anything personal altogether whether it's about a man or a woman. That's the surest way to avoid being inappropriate.

You can learn whether saying something is inappropriate or not by listening to other people's conversations, watching TV dramas and so on, too. It doesn't have to be you that try and make mistakes. I also do sometimes ask some people if saying something is considered inappropriate.



hey_there
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19 Aug 2014, 6:32 pm

skibum wrote:
hey_there wrote:
skibum wrote:
I would have never in a million years guessed that what you said implied that she was already fat. If you had said it to me I would have understood what you said exactly as you did and I would have found it funny. Maybe Aspies tend to think more like each other.
At first when I read that I thought it was funny, but then when it said that she had a (thin) supermodel body I understood that it implied that.
And this is interesting because even knowing that she had a supermodel body, I would not have made the connection that it implied what they said it implied. I did not connect the two at all and I probably would never have thought to connect them if it had not been mentioned.

However, I do make connections about other things which are COMPLETELY not connected AT ALL at first glance and when I do that it really throws people off in conversation. It drives my husband nuts sometimes. My brother is better about it. He just kind of says, "okay" and he is able to switch gears with me and answer my questions or kind of just go with the flow of my thoughts.

It reminds me of one thread where someone posted a cute acrostic using the word "Asperger's" and one of the letters was talking about weird associations and said, "The number 11 reminds me of white bread dipped in tomato sauce." I would make weird associations like that would make total 100% sense to me but not to anyone else. In my understanding they would be completely connected. But the assumption that your comment to this girl would have implied that she was fat, if you had not explained that implication to me, I would have never been able to come up with that.
Your welcome :)..... yeah, when I saw the "er" at the end of the word it occurred to me that a person has to already be fat to get even fatter, but if they're not fat then they can only begin to get fat.



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19 Aug 2014, 8:08 pm

Not just trial and error, observing people goes a long way I think, at least it did for me.


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hey_there
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19 Aug 2014, 8:51 pm

TallyMan wrote:
Humanaut wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
One of my classmates mother died when we were 10 and I tried to tell her to look on the positive side and gave her reasons why her mother dying could be a good thing.

You should have used this example from Frankl's logotherapy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logotherap ... ng_meaning


As a ten year old, that wouldn't even have occurred to me. My life is full of such social interaction blunders. I've learned over the years to keep my mouth shut about various emotive topics rather than risk say anything that may offend. Apparently when most people are suffering they tend to want supportive and compassionate words rather than practical advice but I don't know how to express emotional support other than using other people's words e.g. "I'm sorry for your loss" which is a useful phrase if someone dies but not really usable for the multitude of life's other miseries and problems. The problem is further compounded by an inability to read other people's body language or facial expressions very well, so unless they get visibly angry or storm off it is often difficult to know if what I've said is appropriate or not when they don't respond verbally.
Yeah, I think as well that keeping my mouth shut is the easiest thing. I too am not a good person to come to for emotional support. I'm more logical than emotional. But for me the thing is not just that I have trouble knowing how to offer emotional support, but I was born with an empathy deficit which unfortunately makes me much less caring than the average person, coupled with some narcissistic traits.



AmethystRose
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19 Aug 2014, 8:59 pm

jk1 wrote:
[ . . .] the use of the comparative of an adjective suggests that someone/something is already whatever that adjective means.
[. . .]

+1 For well-stated, useful knowledge. :geek:



hey_there
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19 Aug 2014, 9:03 pm

AmethystRose wrote:
jk1 wrote:
[ . . .] the use of the comparative of an adjective suggests that someone/something is already whatever that adjective means.
[. . .]

+1 For well-stated, useful knowledge. :geek:
Agree :)



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20 Aug 2014, 1:08 pm

i agree with all on not wanting to be rude to NT's, even inadvertently, especially to those i've just met. and when it does happen, i for sure hear about it. (there are a few individuals who have come to earn my ire, however)

i just wish it was reciprocal. through the years, so many humans have been so rude to me, both inadvertently and intentionally - but apparently that's ok. at least none of them ever seems to get called out on it, and my reactions to it are always challenged.



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20 Aug 2014, 1:38 pm

A combination of manners, trial and error, and observation was how I learned. However, I learned most unspoken social rules through trial and error, which brings up all sorts of embarrassing memories, but are effective reminders to never do them again.


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20 Aug 2014, 2:40 pm

Permanence wrote:
For me, a lot of it is trial and error. But at work I do ask my colleagues before sending a potentially risque email if what I have typed is appropriate. Also if we're going to a meeting or something, I will often tell them what I'm planning to say beforehand and they will give me some tips or tell me if I'm just being ridiculously inappropriate. Sometimes it also works the other way, in that, if something slips out during a meeting - I can ask them afterwards, was that appropriate? And if it was I can go apologise to whomever I said it to.

For example, before one of our meetings started, one of the head honchos was in the room and we got to chatting about how she was engaged but her engagement ring was too big. She said she was going to get her ring resized and I replied "or you could just get fatter", in jest. She was kind of like :O and laughed, then everyone else laughed, but then after the meeting I asked if it was appropriate because I wasn't expecting her to gasp and my colleagues said that by telling her to get fatter, I implied she is already fat - and trust me, she's not, she's got the body of a supermodel. I meant that she should just put on weight and grow into the ring. So I apologised to her afterward and she was all good with it.

Most people that I have a close working relationship with understand that sometimes I just say/do weird stuff, haha. I have them to thank for allowing me to remain employed lol.


What if you had said "or you can just get fat" or "Or you can just put on some weight" would they still have laughed?


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20 Aug 2014, 2:48 pm

TallyMan wrote:
Trial and error pretty much summed it up for me, especially as a kid and young adult. I look back in horror at some of things I said to people in all innocence, sometimes trying to be helpful or comforting and accidentally doing the exact opposite. One of my classmates mother died when we were 10 and I tried to tell her to look on the positive side and gave her reasons why her mother dying could be a good thing. (( massive facepalm now )). My life was full of such clumsy communications. Even now aged 54 I'm still considered verbally clumsy and sometimes rude or too blunt; not by intention though. You just have to learn what offends people - assuming you can even tell.


I quoted TallyMan here because I once (when I was in my 20s) said to an aunt who'd just had a radical double mastectomy for breast cancer that she was lucky she didn't have to wear a bra anymore. (( headdesk ))

The manners I had beaten into me as a youngster, plus trial and error, plus observation (including watching TV and movies) all contributed to (mostly) learning what is and isn't appropriate. I'm still not perfect at avoiding social gaffes, by any means. I'll often ask my boss after meetings if I said anything inappropriate.



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20 Aug 2014, 3:24 pm

Yeah, watching TV shows can be good, however watching movies is not really my thing. I prefer TV shows more.



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20 Aug 2014, 3:48 pm

I learned trial and error. I would say things I learned in school only to get in trouble for it at home and I learned it was a bad thing to say. I realize now that wasn't the case, I think it was me saying it at the wrong time and I thought it was the phrase itself that was bad. It's like how I used to say "cool" about anything to mean "wow" and shocking but then to say "cool" when I saw a car on fire and my mom corrected me than getting mad at me because if she had gotten mad at me, I would have thought cool was a bad thing to say and think it's bad to say every time. By then my mom understood me more so she started to educate me and correct me than get mad.

Anything I did or say and be told that was rude, I would just add that to list of rude behavior so I would knot to not ever do that again. I was so literal I didn't even think rules change and it depended on the situation and I always mimicked people. If I saw them doing something and got no consequence for it, that would tell me it's an okay thing to do and do it too. I was a follower. I still find it confusing for when it's okay to do certain things so I don't do them at all and no stress.

I still learn but by reading posts and I learn from that so it's not really trial and error, more like learning from others experience. I had to learn the hard way that "claim" implies it's a lie someone makes up so when I said my old friend claims to have three kids instead of two, that offended a bunch of moms on babycenter but I never said my friend couldn't say she has three kids. I just said she says she has three kids even though she only has two. I had no idea people consider themselves as having a certain number of kids even though one has died or one died through miscarriage or stillborn. But women took offense to that because they saw it as them being accused of lying about how many kids they have because of what "claim" implies. I think it was more of my ignorance of not understanding the word. If we don't understand a meaning of a word, it will cause misunderstandings. But yet I seemed to have used it right according to the dictionary definition. Or the time I said my aunt and uncle were cheap and everyone laughed and I didn't understand the word really. I used it the way I was taught and I also found out my dad had been insulting me all along because he is always calling me cheap and my mom has called me cheap and she has called herself cheap because she was being frugal or thrifty. So I call my aunt and uncle cheap but said it as a backhanded compliment unintentionally. I said it in a joking way even though I was serious and everyone laughed and I misinterpreted the situation. Now I think I said something wrong every time someone laughs and if I do something and someone laughs, I always think I did something wrong. My mom tells me to not worry about it when people laugh and she thinks it's not a big deal and told me it is confusing so just let it go and not worry about it and I asked her if she has that same issue too and she said "I don't have Asperger's" so I figured she doesn't have that issue and she meant it's confusing for me, not confusing for everyone. Now I try to avoid using the word because I don't want to offend anyone but yet I get told it's okay to still say it but I just have to be careful and for me that is confusing so I would rather not say it at all. Maybe it's fine in my family but with everyone else, no. I also said the word dump once to a parent and it was online luckily because at least I didn't say it at work where there are a bunch of working moms or say it in a playgroup and my dad is always saying he will dump me off at home or at work or at the mall or bookstore so I said it to a mom online about a POS daycare she checked out and it was totally dangerous because of so many safety issues and I said to her good thing she checked the place out before dumping her kids off there. I had no idea what dump implied and even aspies knew what it implied and why it's offensive so they poked fun at me about it and I ignored it. Then again, maybe it was just my ignorance and I was echoing the word because it's been said to me so many times so I said it to someone else. Trial and error.


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20 Aug 2014, 4:09 pm

Eureka13 wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
Trial and error pretty much summed it up for me, especially as a kid and young adult. I look back in horror at some of things I said to people in all innocence, sometimes trying to be helpful or comforting and accidentally doing the exact opposite. One of my classmates mother died when we were 10 and I tried to tell her to look on the positive side and gave her reasons why her mother dying could be a good thing. (( massive facepalm now )). My life was full of such clumsy communications. Even now aged 54 I'm still considered verbally clumsy and sometimes rude or too blunt; not by intention though. You just have to learn what offends people - assuming you can even tell.


I quoted TallyMan here because I once (when I was in my 20s) said to an aunt who'd just had a radical double mastectomy for breast cancer that she was lucky she didn't have to wear a bra anymore. (( headdesk ))


Ouch! I bet that went down like a lead balloon? Re the girl I accidentally upset she told all her friends what I'd said and I still remember them all huddled around her and glancing at me with hate/disgust on their faces, so I became even more of an outsider / loner / weirdo to everyone. Her older brother and I ended up in a fist fight over it too - he wanted retribution for upsetting his sister. He carried the hate for me for many years. All over some very clumsy comments intended to cheer up his sister. :(


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20 Aug 2014, 4:26 pm

TallyMan wrote:
hey_there wrote:
skibum wrote:
I would have never in a million years guessed that what you said implied that she was already fat. If you had said it to me I would have understood what you said exactly as you did and I would have found it funny. Maybe Aspies tend to think more like each other.
At first when I read that I thought it was funny, but then when it said that she had a (thin) supermodel body I understood that it implied that.


Weight/size is one of those topics I learned long ago not to joke about or mention regarding women. It can be a very touchy subject and very easy to cause offence. One of the classics is asking a woman with an extended abdomen when she is expecting her baby only to be told "I'm not pregnant! :x " Oops. :oops:
That has actually happened to me. Someone asked me when I was expecting and turned bright red when I said, "I'm not, I'm just fat."


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20 Aug 2014, 4:30 pm

Eureka13 wrote:

I quoted TallyMan here because I once (when I was in my 20s) said to an aunt who'd just had a radical double mastectomy for breast cancer that she was lucky she didn't have to wear a bra anymore. (( headdesk ))

I would have thought and said the exact same thing. I would love to not have to wear a bra anymore and to me having a flat chest would be much more comfortable. It would never have occurred to me that saying that to someone would have been offensive.


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29 Aug 2014, 8:36 pm

skibum wrote:
Eureka13 wrote:

I quoted TallyMan here because I once (when I was in my 20s) said to an aunt who'd just had a radical double mastectomy for breast cancer that she was lucky she didn't have to wear a bra anymore. (( headdesk ))

I would have thought and said the exact same thing. I would love to not have to wear a bra anymore and to me having a flat chest would be much more comfortable. It would never have occurred to me that saying that to someone would have been offensive.

Me neither. Although, I think the comment was ill received because she HAD to have her breasts removed due to cancer.
However, if something like that were said to someone, say, undergoing a female to male sex change who CHOOSES to have their breasts removed, I think that THEN it may be funny. (though I could be totally wrong).