NT trying to grasp daughter's abstract language problems

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The special interest/perseveration/love of learning thing is something I completely understand. My impression is that a lot of Aspies think that NTs are all like Paris Hilton or something, which is not true. Their are many brilliant, obsessed, and NT folks that I've met in my travels as a software engineer, and I posess these traits myself (not neccessarily brilliant, but hyper-focus, perseveration, that sort of thing). There's a reason why the National Geographic channel exists, and many NTs were horrified when the Discovery Channel and the Learning Channel changed their format to 24X7 makeovers, home improvements, and crab fishing!

There is a need for basic, competent language, though - not to talk about football or makeup tips, but just to get by in life. That's what I'm working on.

I don't think ANYONE here believes ALL NTs are like paris hilton. Heck, even many NTs laugh at HER! If she didn't have money, looks, and a name, where would she be?

As for the love of learning, I mean like some NT kids. MOST NT adults(even those that were the kids that used to love it) seem to not love it.

Steve

Squaretail, hi

I was going to post almost exactly this response having read your wonderfully caring and intelligent exploration of your daughters' way of interpreting and processing communication.

'What room do we usually eat breakfast in?' would be the question I'd give the answer to, personally. 'Where do we...etc?' just raises SO MANY variables for me. Sometimes we eat breakfast in bed, in the sitting room watching telly, in the dining room...etc.

When I am asked this sort of question framed in this very loose way (well, loose as far as I'm concerned) all the possible answers come flooding in at once and I feel quite overwhelmed and tonguetied. It's about the literal and precision. Language, for me at least, is about the EXACT definitions (which leads on to why I think I am autistically, scrupulously honest...I spend ages thinking of the right definitions and, as I've got older, the right way of saying things so that NTs can be in no doubt about what I mean. Even so, they STILL seem to be able to read into what I communicate some weird hidden agendas that THEY make up! )

On top of that is all the social stuff, like 'I want to please this person, how do I best do that? Does this person really want the truth or do they want whatever answer comes out first?'

Trying to work all that out is very taxing in itself - what does their expression mean? are they going to be annoyed with me if I get it wrong? Well, that's how I as a mature adult now process these things - a 4 year old won't be thinking consciously of these elements but I'll bet they are there subconsciously.

I think it's a great idea to incorporate their interests into the smalltalk, that way it becomes relevant and even interesting! I agree that they need to learn to communicate clearly with peers, teachers, other adults, etc. That's vital to ensure that they're respected and hopefully not bullied by others. Here's something I find ironic as an aspie female - I LIKE Paris Hilton!! I personally don't see anything wrong with her - she is a silly and rich young woman who's enjoying life! I've never heard her claim to be an intellectual or moral role model! Being interested in fashion and models as a teen helped me to learn to at least groom and dress myself in a more attractive way, and eventually other kids stopped teasing me about my messy hair and mismatched clothes. So, aside from their sometimes shaky morals, I think an interest in fashionistas like Paris Hilton can be one way for an aspie girl to bridge the gap into the often superficial NT world. Don't worry - I doubt seriously that many aspie girls ever become airheads from reading Vogue once in awhile!

I forgot about that! I DID have a problem with that before, and I used to ask for such things to be qualified. I then started ASSUMING. That used to bug the heck out of me, and now I forgot about it. I KNOW I was younger than 10 at the time, and it took me a couple years to be comfortable for the most part. I STILL have some trouble with some things. Ask a vague question....

Steve

I was reading at four. Don't try to limit them by what seems to be the norm. The social stuff I learned better by seeing it (although I couldn't read a face or eyes to save my life and have an unnerving stare). My dad actually did better with this than my mom did. He would take me out and about with him (he was a construction manager and I was fascinated with cranes and backhoes and such). I liked that so much that I would mimic his behavior because at 4 and 5 I wanted to be like him. I thought he was very cool. LOL So, I would mimic how he was with the guys he worked with and his actions were very NT. Actually, he was very NT. That and the fact that I had five brothers and knew no girls would explain why I acted like a little boy when I started school and had some issues there, but they weren't fatal. I made a girl friend in kindergarten and that worked itself out. But, I did learn some social things by hanging out with my dad rather than being taught. That might help you out. It also helps if you explain why you do it. Don't think that is beyond their grasp, it probably isn't. If the leading expert on dinosaurs is a NT and will only tell you things if you know how to make small talk, you are going to want to learn small talk. Again, put it into a context they can related with and it will go easier.

As to the classes now days, all I can say is that is why so many kids have problems we didn't. I work on projects every day at work, but I don't have that kind of interaction. Most of the people on my projects (with the exception of QA and Training) are not skilled socially. If we sat around talking and laughing, we'd be called on the carpet. I know that for a fact because we've had folks adept at social chitchat and they were asked to get another job. That is highly frowned upon in the places I've worked.

I think it has more to do with our tendency to get “stuck” on details. When you asked about breakfast, she sort of got “stuck” on the first thing you asked, which was “when”. When asked “where”, her brain was still thinking “when”, and probably inadvertently rearranged the question to mean “where in the day do you eat breakfast?” which of course would be “in the morning”, and since that was the wrong answer, she resorted to “when we’re hungry”. That’s actually some pretty good abstract thinking, when you get right down to it! If you’d been more specific, and asked “in what room do you eat breakfast”, that probably would have broke the barrier right away and she would have answered “in the kitchen/dining room/whatever” probably without hesitation.

If you’d reversed the order, and asked “where” first, she might have answered “in the kitchen”. If you’d then asked “when”, she might just have easily have answered, “when we’re in the kitchen”.

At 4 they're more than ready to learn to read. My son was sight reading at 3 and that eases children into reading on their own. My son tests within age range with speech too, but I know that he doesn't always understand what he is hearing. Only in the past couple months did he learn to ask, "what?" when he doesn't understand someone. He used to just have a memorized response to things, often based on the volume, mood of the conversation and his stress level.
It caused a lot of trouble at his last school and led to my pulling him out.
He's very chatty too.

I want to stress that just because an autistic person learns to talk, doesn't negate their previous speech delays. It bothers me that there seems to be a stigma with being autistic vs Aspie. The second you mention that your child talks or is considered age-appropriate, "Oh, he's probably really Asperger's!" Also, my son taught himself to fluctuate pitch and tone (the dramatic emphasis w/in a sentence). He did that via echolalia, he could perfectly mimic someone's voice at 2-4years of age but wasn't speaking (words). When he did acquire speech, people dismissed his dx because he wasn't flat sounding.

I used to mimic pitch and fluctuation too. Often innapropriately, mind you, but I did do it a lot.

It's been a while since I studied early childhood development, but I don't think 4 year olds are capable of abstract thought.

It might be my poor choice of words. Maybe I mean something else than 'abstract thought'. Most four year olds can definitely answer where/when questions and effortlessly discuss past and future events. That's where my girls have trouble.

I don't know if that's abstract thinking or not

Kim,

It will be interesting to see if he is interested in language (or languages) from the mechanics of it. I like the pitch and tone and I think about it in those terms. It was like music for me. Does he like music as well?

I WAS able to handle abstract thought at 4! I knew basic electric principles, and probably understood them about as well as anyone.

Steve

I think the meaningful part is:

1. thought of apart from concrete realities, specific objects, or actual instances: an abstract idea.
2. expressing a quality or characteristic apart from any specific object or instance, as justice, poverty, and speed.
3. theoretical; not applied or practical: abstract science.

What you spoke about COULD fall under #1 or #2.

Steve

Pop loves music and he's obsessed with female voices. It's a combination of a special interest (rewinding a favorite line in a movie) and sensory problem (having a meltdown or tantrum over someone's voice). He's very sensitive and makes judgements about people based on their voices. He's less certain about male voices because men seem to talk lower regardless of mood and level of stimulation.
It's another problem at home because I have a paralyzed vocal chord and can't always control the pitch, tone or volume of my voice. I sound a lot more uptight and excited than I really am. As an infant, he loved my singing voice and I would sing mellow, airy tunes (Dido, Morcheeba). But that's out too. he has a great voice when he sings.

Oh man how frustrating. Hopefully he changes. Sound sensitivity seems to have varied with me over time. Sometimes certain voices seemed like nails on a chalkboard but didn't bother me at other times. I almost felt like my brain wiring went haywire for awhile and straightened back out. Then, it would seem to pick something else to go crazy with instead. It's so frustrating on both sides because neither one of you know it's coming and then it's just there.

As him if he sees music or language. Many of us do that. Language and music are also mathematical at their core so it would be interesting to find out if he knows that.