Look at Me app

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I think that is discriminatory and needs to be exposed as such.

A leftover from a prejudiced and uninformed time I guess.

In some eastern culture it's actually considered rude to stare into the eyes of another person while conversing. Eye contact is still important though. The eyes are a window into the soul.

I think the Western view is changing though. Autism is such a common, popular word now and all the "awareness" (in quotes because just knowing the word and a few symptoms does not equate with awareness) ads and posters mention "lack of eye contact", which in my opinion, isn't quite correct. In the most severe cases it is, but not in thru less severe cases.

Sometimes I wonder how nice it might be to live in a culture where a person's inability to make sustained eye contact wasn't seen as a character flaw. I don't think that most individual people think it's an indication of dishonesty, I really don't, but this is the reason my husband fixates on and stresses.

Does he believe you to be dishonest?

I have a thread about my current issues in the wp work/jobs forum.
I really was basically just diagnosed with ASD, and now I have to navigate through one of the most passive-aggressive rituals known on earth (ie, the clinical years of medical school). I do think it is important to make eye contact, I just didn't really realize how difficult if was going to be for me, and how much I'm not used to doing it. Apparently it is off putting to some of the older doctors (the same exact type of doctors you shouldn't be telling that you have Aspergers or need special treatment...believe me, they will find some other way to fail you then). The thing is, this type of thinking probably goes on in other fields, but you are not getting evaluations every 6 weeks.

No. It's just the primary reason he'd give years ago when trying to stress the importance of me making eye contact with him. He said people depend on it to tell if you are lying or not. I think it's silly. If that's true, then most people in my life must think I'm a liar and I know they don't. They took it as shyness and some of it was shyness. So now, I walk around constantly thinking that if I don't look at someone enough they will think I am keeping secrets or lying. His thing is that he thinks if someone looks him in the eyes when he asks them a question, then they aren't lying. He thinks that if a person is lying, they won't be able to keep eye contact. He says this is how other people think too. And I have heard this myself though I don't remember where. Probably when I read up on how to tell if someone is lying to you.

As a pre-med, I know I have to look forward to what you've brought up when dealing with patients and even giving research presentations, so I completely agree.
Like it or not eye contract is extremely useful, even if you don't see it that way. That's likely part of your autism - probably specifically part of theory of mind.

Last year, I felt the same way that many of you do. I just didn’t understand (and still don’t completely) why eye contact was important, so I decided to look into why people rely on it so much. Not only is it used for making connections, but it’s also used as a sign of respect. People see making eye contact as you acknowledging that you hear them and what they’re saying. It also tends to signify that you think what they’re saying is important. (Trust me, I get lectures about this all the time, so I totally understand the struggle.) With that being said, I’m sure we all vary with our eye contact struggles, so perhaps mine are not as bad as some of you have it. Eye contact makes me uncomfortable, but I’ve learned to deal with it by looking into a person’s eyes only for a couple seconds or so. I don't like it - the same way I don't like most of the things life has thrown at me - but I deal with it. It's not really a big deal for me, but yet again, that's just me.

Its importance will also depend on your circumstances, I suppose. If you’re not directly required to be around people (in school, a workplace, etc…) and make that type of connection, then it may not matter as much for you. But for those of us who are required to make that type of connection, it’s essential and I assume that’s why they’re doing this – if a child can learn it from a young age, it will not only save them struggles in the future, but it will open up an abundance of opportunities for them. We definitely need more autistic people looking forward to getting MDs and PhDs, for example, and without this skill, it’s unlikely they’ll be able to reach that goal.

So yes, like it or not, this is something children need to be taught. Sure, you can be successful without making good eye contact, but their chances of success in dealing with people is going to be significantly lower than an autistic person who can make eye contact.

By the way, it doesn’t seem like eye contact is being “forced.” It’s being taught in a child friendly way, which is a lot different than force in this case. It’s more of a therapy or invention than anything.

When I first saw the title of this thread, I thought it was going to be about another social networking site.

Anyway, I get short lectures and reminders from my husband frequently about looking at him so he knows I heard him or am listening or care about what he is saying. I know what you mean there, Jezebel.

And the stupid thing is that I remember being a kid and being hurt and upset that my mom didn't look at me and yet I go and forget or refuse to look at or think the other person can tell I am listening or heard them without looking at them.

My mother is always lecturing me about it.
For example, she'll tell me it's rude to get up (like maybe leave a room to go get something) while someone's talking. To be quite honest, I'd never even thought about it before she'd explained how she had no idea if I was listening or not. I thought she automatically knew I was listening. I mean, we're within close distance, so logically speaking, she should know I can hear her, right? I can see how it'd be rude now, but I still think it depends on the situation. If you approached me and I didn't want to talk in the first place because I'm doing something, am I obliged to stay there and listen?

Is that how some of you all have thought/felt in similar situations when people tell you they don't know if you're listening?

Last edited by Jezebel on 30 Dec 2014, 8:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

It's wrong that some have to do something so painful to satisfy a perception of others that they are listening. And that's all it is, a perception. There's been times where I made perfect eye contact but my mind was elsewhere and times where I was completely focused mentally, but my eyes were elsewhere.

I'm definitely a part of the anti-conformist crowd on WP, but I do legitimately think that there are skills that autistic people can develop. I don't think it should be forced on everyone, and it shouldn't be done in the same way (big mistake), but I think there is room for growth. Of course, NTs could use a lot of learning from those with autism/AS as well.

My experience with eye contact is funny. For the most part I stare people in the eyes and I don't really notice. I always thought that starting at people made me a creep. It didn't help that my social anxiety really kicked in in middle school and made the problem worse. However, I never even noticed this.

I guess that would vary from person to person. You also have to think about how things may get easier the more often you experience them. This app is a type of social skills therapy, which is something we all have to work on, right?

If it's extremely difficult for someone to do, then the best option isn't necessarily to never encourage them to do it again though. That's where perseverance and different therapeutic methods will come into play. The idea is that if you can teach a child - since the app is basically only affecting them as far as I know - these social skills in a non-harmful way (in this case, it didn't seem to cause the children any distress), then why not do it? As I said before, it opens up a lot of opportunities in life for the child and we need more autistic people in high places. Now if someone's being taught social skills in a way that they find harmful, that's a completely different scenario and doesn't really seem to be what's happening here.

It sounds like age and intervention/therapy methods may play a role in one's ability to make eye contact as well. A child that was found to need therapy in that area at a young age might have therefore had better experiences with it as a child (perhaps they were taught coping mechanisms - my mother basically taught my brother and I to look beyond people, and that's something I still tend to use), whereas someone who never had any actual type of therapy for that social skills issue would have had to struggle with feeling "forced" to do something they never even understood.

Perception means a lot though. Often times it'll mean everything if someone's meeting you for the first time. I do think autistic people should be given certain "allowances" at times, but often that's not even feasible - medical school is a perfect example of that. It's different when you're dealing with family members versus the public. Sadly, there are simply times where it's better to appear more NT and less autistic. Is it right? Nah, I'm not saying it is because no one should have to change him or herself to be "accepted", but that's just how it is. (Though making eye contact really isn't "changing" yourself in the sense I'm referring to - I'm talking more about someone having to resist stimming or meltdowns.) And then some autistic people don't want those "allowances" anyway because they don't want to be seen as disabled or different than other people.

@Hansgrohe:
Yes, I agree and that's one of my points. If a child can learn to develop these skills, what's the harm in that? Obviously the way about learning social skills varies just as therapy methods do, but I see no problem overall with autistic people learning to develop social skills like making eye contact.

Perhaps if autistic people are making an effort to participate in the exchange of eye contact, non-autistic people can make the effort to get over this prejudice.

Yep...I'm into the "meeting halfway" thing myself.