So I posted in the infamous AS partners forum for NT's...

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B19
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05 Feb 2015, 3:59 am

I followed one of the WP last year - she seemed to feel entitled to insult everyone on the spectrum globally with her patronising and self-justifying comments. Some people objected, others felt sorry for her...



mr_bigmouth_502
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05 Feb 2015, 4:12 am

ASPartners is a hate site, and should be treated as such.



DestinedToBeAPotato
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05 Feb 2015, 4:34 am

mr_bigmouth_502 wrote:
ASPartners is a hate site, and should be treated as such.


I learnt that the hard way. It was like I had visited stormfront.org , except instead of racial minorities and LGBT being the scapegoat, it was autistic individuals in this instance.

I guess the term "curiosity killed the cat" is not far from the truth. If you get too adventurous and decide to check out the the electric cable and chew through it, it is not going to go very well for you.. In this case I wanted to know how an NT would perceive an aspie if they were in a romantic relationship - And boy, I got fried that's for sure. XD

I am not going back to that site, I am afraid of the hatred and vitriol that awaits me, if I dare even go back and reply to those comments any further.


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B19
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05 Feb 2015, 4:36 am

Don't go back there, that's a good decision. Good for you. I can see that you went there in a spirit of good will. They don't have any. Simple as that...



Jono
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05 Feb 2015, 5:35 am

DestinedToBeAPotato wrote:
B19 wrote:
Yes, absolutely futile. Try talking to a pig, at best it will only grunt back at you. Try to teach it to behave with dignity and respect toward others with enlightened behaviour and you will only annoy the pig, while wasting your own time and energy..


Well they've found this post.. And I am going to stop trying to explain why it's wrong to scapegoat every autistic individual just because of their singular experience with a husband/wife who appears to be unsympathetic. I sympathise with them. It's not easy dealing with ASD individuals.


Elkclan is a member here as well as there. That's why she knew about your thread here.

Oh, and by the way, this is for Elkclan:

He posted the link to the thread here because of the negative responses that he received, not to get any "social kudos". Also yes, whether you like it or not, the way people carry on about aspies on that forum is not too different from the way those misogynist MRA's carry on about women in the "men's rights" reddit or the way that KKK members carry on about blacks on the Stormfront forums. That is actually how we as aspies would view the things said in that forum.



Andrejake
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05 Feb 2015, 5:38 am

This is one of the reasons why I like Wrong Planet so much and why I have no patience/energy to discuss the topics that I've discussed here anywhere else.



Jono
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05 Feb 2015, 5:58 am

Oh, and one more thing. If you were referring to me in that thread Elkclan, no I actually never posted anything in that ASPartners forum. There was someone else posting who I didn't even know was there until he posted the thread that I was watching. Different aspies seem to go and post there on a periodic basis. And yes, I know that you're reading this thread.



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05 Feb 2015, 6:19 am

It is a forum for venting, its like a bonding group therapy, and healthier to release the toxicity than internalise it and have it impact on their families. There is a basic and broad mis-labeling occurring and a disregard for the subtleties of various invisible disorders/conditions....

The perspective influencing the comments there is comradery through survival/escape. Some of their experiences sound so torturous that it reads like many unidentified co morbids/other disorders are impacting on their partnerships. Living with the socially inept is a difficult experience for the social creature.
Some of their phrases and attitudes remind me of the language used by health care professionals in the recent Aras Attracta abuse scandal here in Ireland, essentially the dehumanising of people with disabilities, based on willful ignorance.
Again, its best left alone, much like a KKK or any other hate site.



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05 Feb 2015, 7:09 am

I LOL'd.

Some of the things that people on the AS partners forum was madness.
Having said that, some of the anti-NT sentiments on WP get to me occasionally too (though not to the same level).

Sometimes people have a bad day and just want to vent their frustrations to other people who may be familiar with / understand / have experienced a similar situation. And sometimes people want to spew hatred.

I wonder if there is any constructive way to facilitate conversations between these 2 groups but that is assuming that the point is to understand the other side. On that vein, I really liked the "AS/NT hotline" thread that was stickied on here. It seemed really friendly, helpful and constructive. If anyone knows of a place online where that kind of discourse is the norm rather than the exception I really would like a link.
Thanks
Maz



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05 Feb 2015, 7:25 am

iammaz wrote:
I LOL'd.

Some of the things that people on the AS partners forum was madness.
Having said that, some of the anti-NT sentiments on WP get to me occasionally too (though not to the same level).

Sometimes people have a bad day and just want to vent their frustrations to other people who may be familiar with / understand / have experienced a similar situation. And sometimes people want to spew hatred.

I wonder if there is any constructive way to facilitate conversations between these 2 groups but that is assuming that the point is to understand the other side. On that vein, I really liked the "AS/NT hotline" thread that was stickied on here. It seemed really friendly, helpful and constructive. If anyone knows of a place online where that kind of discourse is the norm rather than the exception I really would like a link.
Thanks
Maz


Actually, it's quite rare to have anti-NT sentiments on WP. There are very few threads here that bash NT's and when there are, most of it isn't bashing NT's in general but a reaction towards a particular group of NT's that spew hatred towards us. On that forum however, AS-bashing seems to be the rule rather than the exception.



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05 Feb 2015, 7:39 am

Looking at more posts there, yeah, they don't want your help. They want to project their own feelings of hate onto you. Not saying this to be mean, but they certainly don't want you posting there.

This is the problem when you group too many like-minded people together. They keep reenforcing their beliefs as a sort of cathartic escape. they believe so strongly in their stance, and there are very clearly motivated to believe strongly in their views, it gets to the point that they end up blowing people up, metaphorically or literally. That's why I like the idea that people without aspergers are allowed to post on this site.



iammaz
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05 Feb 2015, 7:46 am

Jono wrote:
Actually, it's quite rare to have anti-NT sentiments on WP. There are very few threads here that bash NT's and when there are, most of it isn't bashing NT's in general but a reaction towards a particular group of NT's that spew hatred towards us. On that forum however, AS-bashing seems to be the rule rather than the exception.


I noticed the anti-NT sentiments a lot. I'm not saying it's like that other site, just that spectrum people do come on here and do say things like "All NT's are stupid and confusing" which is just venting after a frustrating experience. I particularly notice it because in the past, I would have been doing the same myself whereas now I try to give people the benefit of the doubt.

The idea of passing on anger and frustration to the next person, is an extremely tiring prospect to me.

I really want to give an example of what I mean but right now I am having difficulty focusing on my thoughts and I feel that if not very carefully worded, it could be seen as attacking or confrontational when it is not intended as such. If this thread is still active later or tomorrow, I'll make another attempt at explaining myself.
Thanks for your patience.
Maz



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05 Feb 2015, 8:13 am

I thought this article which I will print below was on of the most moving pieces I have ever come across regarding Autism and empathy. I will say that though this particular author largely takes on Simon Baron Cohen - to be fair even Simon Baron Cohen does not deny that people with Autism have empathy. He sees the empathy deficit not as a lack of caring or feeling - but lacking a spontaneous and natural ability to understand other people's feeling and thoughts - But anyway, here is the very moving article:

by Rachel Cohen-Rottenberg

Representing Difference as Pathology: An Example from Simon Baron-Cohen’s The Science of Evil


August 23, 2012 at 12:09 pm

I find it very painful to write about the work of Simon Baron-Cohen. I’ve done so extensively in the past, and this spring, I decided to take a break from it. But there is a passage in his latest book, The Science of Evil: On Empathy and the Origins of Cruelty, that has haunted me since I read it last year, and I feel the need to explore why. I’ve critiqued the book before, but somehow couldn’t touch this passage until now, and I think I understand why: The passage doesn’t simply speak volumes about how others view autistic people in particular, or disabled people in general, but constitutes a particularly telling example of the ways in which our society pathologizes difference and blames people outside the norm for the treatment we receive.

In Chapter 4: When Zero Degrees of Empathy is Positive, Baron-Cohen makes the extreme, pejorative, and wholly incorrect assertion that, for people on the autism spectrum, “Other people’s behavior is beyond comprehension, and empathy is impossible,” and concludes that autistic people have “zero degrees of empathy” (Baron-Cohen 2011, 117). He attempts to mitigate the impact of these statements by saying that autistic people are “zero-positive” because, in his estimation, our systemizing skills enable us to build such things as elaborate moral systems (my elaborate moral system is built on empathy, thank you, but I digress) and cutting-edge technology (for which I have no aptitude whatsoever, thank you, but I digress) (Baron-Cohen 2011, 122-123). Despite this apparent attempt to redeem us from the lack-of-empathy stigma, Baron-Cohen presents the story of a 52-year-old man named Michael, who has Asperger’s Syndrome, as representative of the lives of autistic people, and he characterizes Michael as almost robotic: controlling, anti-social, utterly logic-minded, and incapable of understanding other people’s feelings or of having any emotional responses of his own (Baron-Cohen 2011, 96-100).

To illustrate his view that autistic people are on the zero end of the empathy scale, Baron-Cohen begins by writing about Michael’s childhood. I find two things rather fascinating about Baron-Cohen’s rendering: 1) His descriptions of Michael’s childhood do not illustrate Michael’s lack of empathy, but the lack of empathy of the children around him, and 2) the wholesale lack of empathy on the part of “normal” children goes entirely unremarked. He writes of Michael:


Even as a child he found social situations confusing and stressful. He didn’t play with other children in the playground, was never invited to their birthday parties, was not picked to be on their team. He avoided the playground by going to the bottom of the playing field at primary school — alone — and counting blades of grass. In the winter when it snowed, he became obsessed with the structure of snowflakes, wanting to understand why each one was different. Other children in his class couldn’t understand what he was talking about because in their eyes all snowflakes looked the same. Although the teacher had told all the class that every snowflake is unique, it seemed that he was the only person in the class who could actually see the small individual differences in the snowflakes. The other children in the class teased him, calling him “snowflake brain.” (Baron-Cohen 2011, 97-98)

It’s difficult, at first, to grasp all that is wrong with this passage, because Baron-Cohen is uttering entirely prejudicial things in a very kind and reasonable tone. Let’s start at the beginning: He suggests that a sign of Michael’s lack of empathy is that he didn’t play with other children, wasn’t asked to their parties, and was the proverbial last kid picked for the team. Baron-Cohen seems to take it entirely for granted that Michael is at fault, and that it was quite natural that the other children would reject him because of his as-yet-undiagnosed disability. He gives not the slightest nod to the idea that perhaps Michael didn’t play with the other children because they themselves were unempathetic — because they would not tolerate his confusion and stress, because they rejected him based on his difference, because they shut him out from every birthday party, and because they didn’t want him on their teams.

After continual social rejection, what exactly is wrong with a child running to the other end of the playing field alone and amusing himself as best he can? Counting blades of grass is not a normative response, but that doesn’t make it wrong; in fact, I can certainly understand why a stressed-out autistic kid who is being rejected for reasons he can’t fathom would try to calm himself with a counting ritual. Given the other possibilities for dealing with wholesale social rejection — lashing out in anger at others or doing harm to oneself — an obsession with grass seems to me an entirely non-retaliatory response, and says quite a bit about Michael’s gentleness. Not surprisingly, given the purpose of his narrative, the author never remarks upon this gentleness.

What I find most heart-wrenching, however, is the story of Michael’s fascination with the unique structure of each snowflake, and the ways in which the other children respond to it. Michael’s attentiveness to details that most people miss, and his love for the small and intricate beauty of the natural world, are deeply moving to me. The other children do not see what Michael sees and they do not understand his fascination, but Baron-Cohen does not tar this lack of understanding as a lack of empathy, despite the fact that he considers Michael’s inability to see what other children see, and his lack of interest in what gives them happiness, as prima facie evidence that Michael has an empathy disorder. I’m not sure on what logical basis a scientist could make such a subjective, one-sided, prejudicial assessment, but then again, it’s passages like this one that long ago caused me to give up on the idea of objectivity altogether.

Perhaps the most distressing part of the entire passage is the way in which Baron-Cohen assesses the children’s response: He writes that they “teased” Michael by calling him “snowflake brain” (Baron-Cohen 2011, 98). I take issue with Baron-Cohen’s use of the word “teased.” The children were not teasing Michael; they were calling him names and laughing at him. Teasing is good-natured fun between people of relatively equal power. There isn’t a hint of equal power here, and there is nothing good-natured about making fun of a beautiful thing that brings joy to an isolated, rejected kid. At best, several other children laughing at their defenseless classmate constitutes harassment; at worst, it’s bullying. Anyone who has ever been laughed at as a form of dismissal and exclusion knows exactly what I’m talking about. These are the kinds of microaggressions that accumulate to create self-doubt and self-hatred in those who are the targets of them. But Baron-Cohen does not seem to consider laughing at a vulnerable kid evidence of a lack of empathy in the “normal” children. In fact, he seems to imply that if Michael had any empathy for his classmates, he would have known better than to talk endlessly about snowflakes.

While Baron-Cohen’s much-cherished and erroneous belief that autism is an empathy disorder is the reason for the inclusion of this story in his book, the framing of the story is indicative of a much larger problem in writing about disability and other forms of difference: Non-normative people become responsible for our own social rejection. The accusations launched at Michael and, by extension, at us — that we’re incapable of “normal” human feelings and that we’re trapped in our own worlds — could just as easily be launched at those who reject us. How many “normal” people have enough human feeling to befriend and understand non-normative people? How many “normal” people are trapped in their own “normal” worlds, without any consciousness of what it means to be non-normative? The accusations of lack of caring and lack of engagement adhere to the ones who are different. Those in the majority are simply acting “normally” by doing all the things that, when non-normative people do them, are considered evidence of pathology.

These kinds of accusations are a form of victim-blaming that have no place in a civilized society. That people who consider themselves objective engage in it is an indication of how deeply entrenched a habit of mind it is.


References

Baron-Cohen, Simon. The Science of Evil: On Empathy and the Origins of Cruelty. New York, NY: Basic Books, 2011.

http://www.disabilityandrepresentation. ... pathology/


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05 Feb 2015, 8:39 am

My response to BSTN at 11 of 18.

I see that BSTN has given me a shout out. Well I think it's time to give her and the rest of them a shout out back.

http://youtu.be/rh__4s6fe08?t=15s



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05 Feb 2015, 8:40 am

Quote:
I have been directed to this site via wrongplanet.net, I have been lurking here for a while and I cannot help but notice the many instances where individuals on this forum have displayed their nescience and significant lack of understanding of what ASD is, through their incredibly ignorant statements regarding individuals who have Aspergers. I could not keep silent anymore.

People with Aspergers can feel compassion


So, OP, you started this thread at Delphi, then? You must have known the reaction you would get. Your sentiment is noble but the venue is ill advised.

ASpartners is a support site like wrong planet. And that's fair I think. It bothers me the way they and dehumanize us, but they have a right to share their stories.



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05 Feb 2015, 9:05 am

androbot01 wrote:
Quote:
I have been directed to this site via wrongplanet.net, I have been lurking here for a while and I cannot help but notice the many instances where individuals on this forum have displayed their nescience and significant lack of understanding of what ASD is, through their incredibly ignorant statements regarding individuals who have Aspergers. I could not keep silent anymore.

People with Aspergers can feel compassion


So, OP, you started this thread at Delphi, then? You must have known the reaction you would get. Your sentiment is noble but the venue is ill advised.

ASpartners is a support site like wrong planet. And that's fair I think. It bothers me the way they and dehumanize us, but they have a right to share their stories.


I didn't expect that response. I assumed that there would be a rational and civil discussion from the users on that forum, possibly giving me an explanation as to why they have mislabelled autism as sociopathy and explain the logic behind it. Instead I was met with hostility for being an aspie. I am never going back to that wretched site again. The general atmosphere is simply noxious and toxic. I will let them dwell in their hatred, and will allow them to continue to dehumanize all aspies.


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