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Harder Theory of Mind Test

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Adamantium
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05 Mar 2015, 12:48 pm

quaker wrote:
Many who have replied to this post have shown that they have advanced theory of mind. This just makes me think that theory of mind is just that..... A Theory of Mind. I am a most respectful but severe critic of SBC's work for the simple reason that it just doesn't stand up to the many diverse and eclectic mix of people I know in the autistic spectrum. This is my experience and I fully appreciate that this might not be others experience.

One you have met one person in the autistic spectrum......... You have met one person in the autistic spectrum.


It seems to me that the idea is that autistic children have a delay in developing a theory of the workings of other people's minds and not that autistic adults typically don't have any idea that other people have their own mental processes.

I certainly have an understanding that other people have their own perspectives, thoughts, needs and understandings. I often don't know what they are and may be less good at guessing what they are, but I know they are there.

I really liked the video linked in your sig, by the way. I relate to or identify with a lot of that, including finding peace in meditation and really loving my kids.



Magnus_Rex
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05 Mar 2015, 1:42 pm

At first, it did not make sense (I have never heard of the RNLI and, although I know Birmingham is a city, the reply looked like a non sequitur). After about 40 seconds, I started to think that the passerby was trying to say that they did not need the RNLI services (by then I had already deduced what is the RNLI), therefore, they had no reason to donate. But I read someone else's interpretation before my own deduction could develop fully, therefore, I will consider this a failure on my part.

Anyway, 40 seconds is too long to figure things out in a real conversation, as I can attest from previous experiences. I would have failed even if I had gotten it right without any help.


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Sorry for this terrible joke, by the way.


mpe
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05 Mar 2015, 2:13 pm

starkid wrote:
I couldn't get this one out at all. You are supposed to figure out why the passerby responded the way she did.

Flag-seller: "Would you like to buy a flag for the Royal National Lifeboat Institution?"

Passerby: "No, thanks, I always spend my holidays with my sister in Birmingham."

It's a good demonstration of how most "theory of mind" tests are actually a combination of reading comprehension and random knowlage. It's not uncommon for people to lack knowlage which pertains to somewhere a third of the way around the planet.
If this was about a charity and city in North America I suspect most Europeans would be struggling to work it out.



mpe
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05 Mar 2015, 2:24 pm

Magnus_Rex wrote:
At first, it did not make sense (I have never heard of the RNLI and, although I know Birmingham is a city, the reply looked like a non sequitur).

Effectivly this and the other example just as easily work as challenges to find a context without logical fallacy. Which dosn't appear to have anything in common with the ToM concept.



Magnus_Rex
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05 Mar 2015, 3:46 pm

mpe wrote:
Effectivly this and the other example just as easily work as challenges to find a context without logical fallacy. Which dosn't appear to have anything in common with the ToM concept.

Maybe logic is related to ToM? I have had people getting upset at me for steering conversations to apparently unrelated topics. Not that they were completely nonsensical, but sometimes I take a few leaps with my reasoning and people usually dislike that.


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DISCLAIMER: It should be noted that, while I strongly suspect I have Asperger's syndrome, I am not diagnosed. Nevertheless, my score on RAADS-R is 186, which makes me a pretty RAAD guy.

Sorry for this terrible joke, by the way.


Rocket123
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05 Mar 2015, 10:18 pm

starkid wrote:
I couldn't get this one out at all. You are supposed to figure out why the passerby responded the way she did.

Flag-seller: "Would you like to buy a flag for the Royal National Lifeboat Institution?"

Passerby: "No, thanks, I always spend my holidays with my sister in Birmingham."

I struggled with understanding the above. My two thoughts were:

1. My wife, an NT, oftentimes in conversation with others says things that don't make sense (at least to me). Just like in the above scenario. But, the other person seems to "get" how my wife’s utterance is relevant within the flow of conversation. Is that other person being polite (and, thinking like I do, "what the heck is she talking about")? Or, does the other person really understand how what my wife said is relevant in the flow of conversation? I have no clue.

2. When anyone asks me to buy anything, my first thought is, "How do I get them to leave me alone"? Perhaps a nonsensical answer is appropriate in this situation.



yellowtamarin
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06 Mar 2015, 1:47 am

Am I the only one who was confused by what it meant to "buy a flag for"? Most seem to have easily understood that that means giving money to the charity, but I was thinking "what kind of flag? Like a little souvenir flag that you get to show that you made a donation? Or an actual lifesavers flag? Why would they be selling those to the public? But it says you are buying it for the RNLI so grammatically that makes more sense, even if not practically". If it just said "Would you like to make a donation to the Royal National Lifeboat Institution?", I would have understood a lot more easily and I don't think it would have affected the purpose of the test.



Rocket123
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06 Mar 2015, 2:11 am

yellowtamarin wrote:
If it just said "Would you like to make a donation to the Royal National Lifeboat Institution?", I would have understood a lot more easily and I don't think it would have affected the purpose of the test.

Not me. I would have been even more confused.



Logston
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06 Mar 2015, 2:16 am

yellowtamarin wrote:
Am I the only one who was confused by what it meant to "buy a flag for"?.


No, I was hung up on it at first.

I still don't really understand her response, though. How does the fact that she'll never need their services have anything to do with the holidays specifically?



starkid
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06 Mar 2015, 3:36 am

Logston wrote:
I still don't really understand her response, though. How does the fact that she'll never need their services have anything to do with the holidays specifically?


Another UK thing — their "holidays" are equivalent in meaning to "vacation" in the U.S.

That probably doesn't help much with the overall meaning, though — where a person spends the holidays is not much more relevant to supporting a charity than where one goes on vacation.

Perhaps the passerby was just firing off a not-very-well-thought out response due to feeling awkward and anxious about escaping a solicitor.



Adamantium
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06 Mar 2015, 11:27 am

starkid wrote:
Logston wrote:
I still don't really understand her response, though. How does the fact that she'll never need their services have anything to do with the holidays specifically?


Another UK thing — their "holidays" are equivalent in meaning to "vacation" in the U.S.

That probably doesn't help much with the overall meaning, though — where a person spends the holidays is not much more relevant to supporting a charity than where one goes on vacation.

Perhaps the passerby was just firing off a not-very-well-thought out response due to feeling awkward and anxious about escaping a solicitor.


This last sentence is unintentionally comical if read from a Brit perspective. The first definition that springs to mind for solicitor is not a person trying to drum up business or donations, but a lawyer:
"a member of that branch of the legal profession whose services consist of advising clients, representing them before the lower courts, and preparing cases for barristers to try in the higher courts."

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/solicitor
(definition 4)



Rocket123
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06 Mar 2015, 12:31 pm

Adamantium wrote:
The passerby thinks that people only need to be rescued from the ocean on holiday. The passerby thinks people should only contribute to the RNLI if they think they will need rescuing from the ocean. The passerby thinks that since rescues are only needed on holiday (an irrational thought) and they only ever go on holiday in a land locked city, they will never need the services of the RNLI and therefore can't be expected to support them in any way.

I just re-read your response. I think I finally get it.

So, I will translate to Rocket-speak (and use an alternative example), so it makes sense (at least to me):

Solicitor: "Would you like to donate to the National Association for Search and Rescue, an organization that saves lives by conducting wilderness search and rescues?"

Passerby: "No, thanks, I avoid going into the wilderness. Instead, I prefer to donate to other organizations."

[Please note, I avoid the wilderness as well.]

So, now I am wondering how this has anything to do with TOM.



Last edited by Rocket123 on 06 Mar 2015, 12:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.

nerdygirl
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06 Mar 2015, 12:45 pm

Logston wrote:
yellowtamarin wrote:
Am I the only one who was confused by what it meant to "buy a flag for"?.


No, I was hung up on it at first.

I still don't really understand her response, though. How does the fact that she'll never need their services have anything to do with the holidays specifically?


I didn't get the "buy a flag for" either, and thought it might be important for the answer. Perhaps the flag was supposed to be put ON a boat, and she didn't have a boat since she spent holidays in Burmingham?

All I know is that if I don't know, I can quickly overthink and brainstorm a multitude of reasons, then obsess about all of them until I figure it out, if ever.



Janissy
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06 Mar 2015, 5:25 pm

Rocket123 wrote:
Adamantium wrote:
The passerby thinks that people only need to be rescued from the ocean on holiday. The passerby thinks people should only contribute to the RNLI if they think they will need rescuing from the ocean. The passerby thinks that since rescues are only needed on holiday (an irrational thought) and they only ever go on holiday in a land locked city, they will never need the services of the RNLI and therefore can't be expected to support them in any way.

I just re-read your response. I think I finally get it.

So, I will translate to Rocket-speak (and use an alternative example), so it makes sense (at least to me):

Solicitor: "Would you like to donate to the National Association for Search and Rescue, an organization that saves lives by conducting wilderness search and rescues?"

Passerby: "No, thanks, I avoid going into the wilderness. Instead, I prefer to donate to other organizations."

[Please note, I avoid the wilderness as well.]

So, now I am wondering how this has anything to do with TOM.


The Theory of Mind part is here:

Quote:
"No, thanks, I avoid going into the wilderness.


From that piece of information you have to infer...
Quote:
" I prefer to donate to other organizations."
(because I only donate to organizations that I may someday need to use. )

The italicized inference can only be gotten by using TOM. If you only go by what you personally do, you won't be able to figure it out (unless you, like her, only donate to organizations you may someday need to use). You have to be able to figure out the reasoning of a person with a drastically different way of making choices from yours.



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06 Mar 2015, 6:04 pm

Rocket123 wrote:
So, now I am wondering how this has anything to do with TOM.


The passerby only gave one step in her reasoning process for not purchasing a flag. ToM is (allegedly) what enables one to easily and reliably supply her entire reasoning process with just that one step as input.

Logston wrote:
I still don't really understand her response, though. How does the fact that she'll never need their services have anything to do with the holidays specifically?


I think I see another implicit step — presumably, during the conversation the flag-seller and the passerby are not located someplace where the passerby thinks an emergency lifeboat service would be useful (they're probably in another town inland). The passerby assumes that the flag-seller knows that this town is her home/habitual location, so even though she only mentions where she goes on vacation, she is effectively saying, "not only do I live inland, but the only other places I go to are also inland, so I'm never located anyplace where I would need your service."



Logston
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06 Mar 2015, 6:21 pm

starkid wrote:

Logston wrote:
I still don't really understand her response, though. How does the fact that she'll never need their services have anything to do with the holidays specifically?


I think I see another implicit step — presumably, during the conversation the flag-seller and the passerby are not located someplace where the passerby thinks an emergency lifeboat service would be useful (they're probably in another town inland). The passerby assumes that the flag-seller knows that this town is her home/habitual location, so even though she only mentions where she goes on vacation, she is effectively saying, "not only do I live inland, but the only other places I go to are also inland, so I'm never located anyplace where I would need your service."


I guess I "get it", but I'm still pretty sure that I'd be utterly confused if I were the one asking the question and had gotten a reply like this.