Board index › General Discussion › General Autism Discussion

Theory of Mind/mind blindness issues

Page 2 of 4 [ 56 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4  Next

Previous topic | Next topic

Sherry221B
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Age: 123
Gender: Female
Posts: 670
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS

11 Mar 2015, 7:23 am

Quote:
Yep, sociopaths are the most guilty of this(they're super-fake), and the NTs aren't far behind.


So, is this a thing people do, or just something exclusive to sociopaths?



Venger
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 15 Apr 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,519

11 Mar 2015, 7:33 am

Sherry221B wrote:
Quote:
Yep, sociopaths are the most guilty of this(they're super-fake), and the NTs aren't far behind.


So, is this a thing people do, or just something exclusive to sociopaths?


I said they both do it, just sociopaths usually do it more.



ImAnAspie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Oct 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,686
Location: Erra (RA 03 45 12.5 Dec +24 28 02)

11 Mar 2015, 7:53 am

Sherry221B wrote:
There is something else I find confusing: talking badly about someone when they are not present, but when that someone is in front of them, they act as if they geuinely liked that certain individual. However that only lasts as long as they are present. I do not understand why they do this... It has reminded me too of a bad movie when the main character went to party and broke everything around her while yelling her frustrations concerning her best friend, and, her friend yelled back why she cannot say those things with others at her home when she is not around like normal people do.

So, I asked about this because I am not sure if I got this right. Is this changing related mainly to wicked individuals? I mean, I have experienced an exaggerated mistreatment, but when said individuals are with others, the way they act completely changes. With strangers or simply those who do not really know them, they even act as quite merry, and "good", a total different attitude, but not always. As soon as they are gone, they would come to their real self again. There are variations presented in these bizarre patterns.


Quote:
People wear masks. They act differently in different situations depending on the company they're in. They change themselves to suit the company they're in.

I've never done that. I'm always the same old boring me no matter where I am or the company I'm in. Perhaps that's why I'm a social flop!

I thought other people were the same wherever they go. They're not.

I've lived a very sheltered, naive life.


I was going to post this, but I have just read this part. This is also strange. This reminds me of the tale of a character that changes the way they act depending with what individual they are dealing with, but in order to manipulate them. So....Is everybody who does this "bad"? Because in my experience those who do or did this are. It has taken me lot of years to realise about these kind of things, though....

Is there any purpose about acting in a different way? I can only think of hiding how they are really like, or to impress others.


To fit in mostly although I guess it could also be used to manipulate others.

I've seen men who are usually meek and mild but if they mix with other 'tough' football loving, aggressive, rowdy men, they'll change their demeanor to suit the company.

I can't do that. (a) I'm not that good an actor and (b) I can't and wouldn't want to be anything but what I am!

I don't know a simpler way to explain this. :|


_________________
Your Aspie score: 151 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 60 of 200
Formally diagnosed in 2007.
Learn the simple joy of being satisfied with little, rather than always wanting more.


ImAnAspie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Oct 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,686
Location: Erra (RA 03 45 12.5 Dec +24 28 02)

11 Mar 2015, 8:20 am

ConceptuallyCurious wrote:
Oh, and people tend to give cake out of kindness. K was angry at J, so giving K's cake to J highlights that you think it is wrong not to give cake to J. This is interpreted as 'making a point' as though you are aligning yourself to J's 'side' that than K's.



NT's can be so petty.

Here at the hospital, there's only one place we're allowed to smoke so I've got to go sit with the other patients (NT's). (Apart from that, meals & classes, I spend all of my time in my room alone).

Anyway, depending on who's down in the smoking area, the majority of them are back stabbing cowards who talk about others when they're not there but as soon as the other person comes down, they act like they're their best friend.
It takes me all of my might to butt out and mind my own business. It makes me wonder what they say about me when I'm not around.


_________________
Your Aspie score: 151 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 60 of 200
Formally diagnosed in 2007.
Learn the simple joy of being satisfied with little, rather than always wanting more.


untilwereturn
Deinonychus
Deinonychus

User avatar

Joined: 1 Aug 2014
Age: 53
Gender: Male
Posts: 386
Location: Tennessee

11 Mar 2015, 8:41 am

Raleigh wrote:
starkid wrote:
Raleigh wrote:
Apparently everyone else except me could interpret the boss's statement as, "You can't fill out your timesheet in advance except on Fridays." How was I supposed to work this out?


Typically, handing a timesheet in on a Friday afternoon does not allow enough time for the pay check to be processed on-time because the payroll dept. will be leaving for the weekend.

To me, saying "you can't fill out your timesheet in advance" means you can't do it under any circumstances. This means submitting your timesheet on Friday morning is falsifying records. When I pointed this out to another employee, he frowned and said. "Oh yeah. I never thought of that."
He'd never thought of it, but to me this was glaringly obvious.
No matter, I was still wrong.



I think about this inconsistency exactly as you do. I've worked for companies that do government contract work, and they always make a big deal about the legal requirement to record your hours each day, on the day worked. Then a holiday comes up, or there's some other issue, and the "rigid" policy goes out the window in the name of expediency. But if it's a requirement the previous week, and no notification has been given to amend that requirement, why is it suddenly not a requirement when adhering to the policy would create inconvenience for someone, somewhere?



Sherry221B
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Age: 123
Gender: Female
Posts: 670
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS

11 Mar 2015, 8:43 am

Quote:
To fit in mostly although I guess it could also be used to manipulate others.

I've seen men who are usually meek and mild but if they mix with other 'tough' football loving, aggressive, rowdy men, they'll change their demeanor to suit the company.

I can't do that. (a) I'm not that good an actor and (b) I can't and wouldn't want to be anything but what I am!

I don't know a simpler way to explain this


Yes, that is right. Impressing others is part of it as well as to fit in. To have the approval of their group and belonging to one, everything related to a group has great importance, for some reason. It is just that these things do not make sense to me no matter what. This made me wonder that, if by changing so frequently like this, if it were in an unnatural manner, would not this cause to lose their own identity? However, in this case, it seems that doing these kind of things could be innate to them, even to the fact of adapting a new and completely different persona.

All these things people and social related, even after reading something that can be taken as valid- It just not make sense to me. As in this case, I understand the concept, but it still does not make sense....By the way, it is a good thing that you have that acceptance towards yourself.

It is good that I got answered.



ImAnAspie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Oct 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,686
Location: Erra (RA 03 45 12.5 Dec +24 28 02)

11 Mar 2015, 8:55 am

Sherry221B wrote:
Quote:
To fit in mostly although I guess it could also be used to manipulate others.

I've seen men who are usually meek and mild but if they mix with other 'tough' football loving, aggressive, rowdy men, they'll change their demeanor to suit the company.

I can't do that. (a) I'm not that good an actor and (b) I can't and wouldn't want to be anything but what I am!

I don't know a simpler way to explain this


Yes, that is right. Impressing others is part of it as well as to fit in. To have the approval of their group and belonging to one, everything related to a group has great importance, for some reason. It is just that these things do not make sense to me no matter what. This made me wonder that, if by changing so frequently like this, if it were in an unnatural manner, would not this cause to lose their own identity? However, in this case, it seems that doing these kind of things could be innate to them, even to the fact of adapting a new and completely different persona.

All these things people and social related, even after reading something that can be taken as valid- It just not make sense to me. As in this case, I understand the concept, but it still does not make sense....By the way, it is a good thing that you have that acceptance towards yourself.

It is good that I got answered.


What I've always wondered about is, how would they act if they were in the company of both those they act meek and mild to as well as those they act tough in front of!


_________________
Your Aspie score: 151 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 60 of 200
Formally diagnosed in 2007.
Learn the simple joy of being satisfied with little, rather than always wanting more.


Joe90
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 26,492
Location: UK

11 Mar 2015, 10:03 am

Venger wrote:
ImAnAspie wrote:
People wear masks. They act differently in different situations depending on the company they're in. They change themselves to suit the company they're in.



Yep, sociopaths are the most guilty of this(they're super-fake), and the NTs aren't far behind. :?


I act differently depending on who I'm with though.


_________________
Female


Sherry221B
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Age: 123
Gender: Female
Posts: 670
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS

11 Mar 2015, 10:19 am

Quote:
What I've always wondered about is, how would they act if they were in the company of both those they act meek and mild to as well as those they act tough in front of!


I guess that they would switch between acting meek and tough every few minutes? :chin: I do not know....



Kiriae
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2014
Age: 35
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,349
Location: Kraków, Poland

11 Mar 2015, 11:25 am

ConceptuallyCurious wrote:
I went to a Harry Potter quiz a few weeks ago. Harry Potter used to be my special interest but much of what I knew has trickled out.

During the quiz, answers I knew to be right were marked as wrong. Although in the past I've been quite extreme about fairness but on this occasion was able to shrug it off - as it may well have been that I confused details. Plus, I'd noticed that the marking was partly based on actual scores and partly just for fun.

I really enjoyed getting to share my interest, as I don't usually get to and especially not when there's time limits on each question and answer to stop me going overboard.

After the quiz, I re-read some of the books and realised that it turned out I was correct. I made a status on facebook about it jokingly about the second error I found (not mentioning the first). I found more errors later but know that it is rude to potentially publicly shame someone even if I don't mean it that way, so I only commented with one additional really, really, minor one. It might have been that someone asked if I'd seen more I don't know.

They liked it and found it amusing. Pretty good up until here, right?

So, then, knowing that it's not good to shame people in public I went to a roller derby training session. I'm always interested in keeping my knowledge accurate and often check on things I know.

The quiz writer and someone who was sure I was wrong were aside from others, so I spotted my chance and told them what I'd noticed.

They said that I'd read it wrong and I pointed out that it was right.

"Well, yes, I suppose that's technically right according to the wording but that's not what it meant." The quiz writer replied and then explained what she'd meant.

"So, that's 3 errors you've spotted now?" The other one said.

"No, I've found 4 in the 2 books I've read." I replied.

"You don't like being wrong, do you?"

"I don't mind being wrong. I just like Harry Potter."

Oh, and people tend to give cake out of kindness. K was angry at J, so giving K's cake to J highlights that you think it is wrong not to give cake to J. This is interpreted as 'making a point' as though you are aligning yourself to J's 'side' that than K's.


That reminds me.

When I was 14 year old I participated in Harry Potter quiz too. There was too many people for the amount of test pages they printed so it turned out there has to be 2 groups and we have to use the same paper, just mark answers different pen colors so they know which student answered what.

I was in the second group. I got my test page and started filling the answers. Fast. Very fast. Harry Potter was my special interest back then so I didn't need to think about the answers at all. Just a glimpse and I already knew what answer is right.

Suddenly the teacher walked to me and said:

- You are not allowed to copy the answers of the one who was using the page before you. You should at least read the questions.

It made me realize it must look like I was just coping the answers because I was answering too fast. I had no idea it looks like that before teacher disturbed me. And even then I couldn't really understand why would anyone do that.

- I read the questions and answer myself. I don't copy the answers. See? In question 11 the answer checked is wrong. The one doing the test before me didn't remember that Harry was using a replacement broom for a short time between destroying Nimbus and getting Firebolt. - I said out loud in front of other students writing the same quiz. :lol:

It didn't change the quiz results though. I got 100% correct answers and I was the only one who got perfect score. How wouldn't I? I read the books over and over 12 times in row. Noone stood the chance against me, although I had no idea there is a quiz until 20 mins before it started (I was never aware of school events). :lol:



ZenDen
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Jul 2013
Age: 81
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,730
Location: On top of the world

11 Mar 2015, 12:04 pm

I think of people's ability to change "mid-stream" as some type of mental jiu jitsu (sp.?) I'll never master...too many "rules" to do it successfully; and you look like such an a$$ if you do it wrong...too easy to attract condemnation.

I've always seen this and haven't changed (or been convinced of a need to) my entire life. But then again I choose (well, fell into) arrogance as my particular "shield" early in life so I'm sure my viewpoint is biased. :D YMMV



Joe90
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 26,492
Location: UK

11 Mar 2015, 1:47 pm

Usually I'm expected to read other people's minds, but other people aren't expected to read my mind.

Like I've been told before "oh people can't mind-read, they're not you, so you can't just say something vaguely and expect them to spot the hint."

Like when me and my partner went to a cash machine at night and the cash machine wasn't a lit up one. We both couldn't see, and he said "I can't see" once, then the second time he said it he said "I can't see, step over there for a minute". I suppose I was meant to see the hint that I was blocking the light what was behind us, without him telling me to move. But I remember being a similar situation to that once, and I said something thinking that the other person would get the obvious hint and react to it but she didn't, so I had to tell her more specifically, and she was all like "I didn't know that was what you meant."

So not everyone can read everyone's mind in every situation. I see stuff like this going on all the time, which makes me feel better about myself.


_________________
Female


Joe90
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Gender: Female
Posts: 26,492
Location: UK

11 Mar 2015, 2:03 pm

Usually I'm expected to read other people's minds, but other people aren't expected to read my mind.

Like I've been told before "oh people can't mind-read, they're not you, so you can't just say something vaguely and expect them to spot the hint."

Like when me and my partner went to a cash machine at night and the cash machine wasn't a lit up one. We both couldn't see, and he said "I can't see" once, then the second time he said it he said "I can't see, step over there for a minute". I suppose I was meant to see the hint that I was blocking the light what was behind us, without him telling me to move. But I remember being a similar situation to that once, and I said something thinking that the other person would get the obvious hint and react to it but she didn't, so I had to tell her more specifically, and she was all like "I didn't know that was what you meant."

So not everyone can read everyone's mind in every situation. I see stuff like this going on all the time, which makes me feel better about myself.


_________________
Female


starkid
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 9 Feb 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 5,812
Location: California Bay Area

11 Mar 2015, 2:09 pm

Sherry221B wrote:
This made me wonder that, if by changing so frequently like this, if it were in an unnatural manner, would not this cause to lose their own identity? However, in this case, it seems that doing these kind of things could be innate to them, even to the fact of adapting a new and completely different persona.


I think that NT identity is fundamentally different from other peoples' identity. Social flexibility, which they've been learning effortlessly and intuitively from a young age, is built into their identity, so making use of it to be fake and changing with people not only does not threaten their identity, but is a more or less integral part of it and therefore comes rather naturally to a degree that depends on personality type and any sub-clinical neurodiverse traits they have.



ImAnAspie
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Oct 2013
Gender: Female
Posts: 7,686
Location: Erra (RA 03 45 12.5 Dec +24 28 02)

11 Mar 2015, 2:43 pm

Joe90 wrote:
Venger wrote:
ImAnAspie wrote:
People wear masks. They act differently in different situations depending on the company they're in. They change themselves to suit the company they're in.



Yep, sociopaths are the most guilty of this(they're super-fake), and the NTs aren't far behind. :?


I act differently depending on who I'm with though.


But is it something you do consciously or does it just happen?


_________________
Your Aspie score: 151 of 200
Your neurotypical (non-autistic) score: 60 of 200
Formally diagnosed in 2007.
Learn the simple joy of being satisfied with little, rather than always wanting more.


Sherry221B
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 28 Oct 2013
Age: 123
Gender: Female
Posts: 670
Location: NONE OF YOUR BUSINESS

11 Mar 2015, 3:00 pm

Quote:
I think that NT identity is fundamentally different from other peoples' identity. Social flexibility, which they've been learning effortlessly and intuitively from a young age, is built into their identity, so making use of it to be fake and changing with people not only does not threaten their identity, but is a more or less integral part of it and therefore comes rather naturally to a degree that depends on personality type and any sub-clinical neurodiverse traits they have.


Ok. Thank you for sharing your opinion and explaining this to me. I did not really know that this changing happens too; I also knew about using it for manipulation, and that has been after spending lot of time reading to get a glimpse of how people work, or attempting to do so...I have found that, the more things I know, the more unpleasant things I realise...

From my perspective- Trying to imitate something you are not, and all the time, not just with certain individuals, and being forced into things, and all of them being unnatural to you....Being forced to it, just because the way you are it is wrong...It is really depressing. So, that is why I thought of the identity loss, because of not being allowed to be yourself, nor have your own likes and dislikes, nor nothing.....